Dreamsicle mission

[Lord_Rahl]

Im in no way new to snakes, but breading is killing me. For now i ultimately want to learn about piebalds and my mission, the beautiful Dreamsicle.

So my problem is i was thinking a 100% het piebald x 100% het lavender albino woud enentually get me the desired snake right? Or am i even on the right track?

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[loonunit]

A 100% het pied x 100% het lavender will produce animals that are 50% possible het for both genes. Statistically speaking, only 1/4 (25%) of the hets produced will actually be carrying the gene.

I recommend at least using a visual pied, so you can increase each animal's chance of being a true double het to 50%.

... But if you can't afford that, the best strategy is to make as many female possible double hets as you can, hold those back, and then purchase a 100% x 100% guaranteed double het male. (Guaranteed double het dreamsicle males are still expensive, but nothing like the double het females.). It's very difficult to prove out possible het females with a possible het male.

[Lord_Rahl]

So im confused. Ok so say i breed the 100% pied het n lavender albino het n get 2 females. Would i breed each to father to increase chance or?

Sorry starting on low budget/maximum enjoyment thrill ride. Cant afford much at first but also wanting to fully understand this. Looked at guide on forum for genetics, just still fully not understanding it.

What would the easiest morph to start and learn on be by using only het x normal to achieve visible piebald... Sorry if im asking to much

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[loonunit]

If you breed the 2 daughters to the father, you can prove them out for whichever gene the father is carrying. Let's assume Mom is a het pied and Dad is a het lavender, because that's probably cheaper. If you breed the daughters back to their father, they might produce some lavender albinos. But you still don't know for sure if either of the daughters (or the offspring they produce) are het for pied. And you won't produce a dreamsicle with the daughter/father pairings.

The only way to produce a dreamsicle is to breed an animal that is carrying at least one copy of both genes to another animal that is carrying at least one copy of both genes.

Some of the brothers from that original breeding might be true double hets (again, you'd expect 25% of them to be), but which one is the real deal? You have no way to tell, and you can only test one male at a time by breeding to either the mother or the sisters. (A single 100% het or visual male can "prove out" multiple possible het females in one year, but a single 100% het or visual female can really only "prove out" one male per year.)

So that's why I recommend saving up and buying a guaranteed double het male the year after you produce the possible double het females.

- - - Updated - - -

Sorry, recessive genes are a pain to work with, aren't they? And possible hets just make it harder.

[Lord_Rahl]

So for instance I already have my eyes on 1 100% het piebald female and 1 100% het lavender albino male and a normal female. F/ M/ F. With only using these 3 snakes what would maximize my chances of success.

[BFE Pets]

Het to het breeding is a long process. Lots of variables. If a dreamsicle is your goal I'd save up and buy a visual piebald and a visual lavendar albino to breed and then all of the off spring are 100% double het. Keep in mind that whichever one is the female you would want to buy it a year before the male so they mature about the same time if you are buying hatchlings. Then you breed brother to sister for your chance at getting the dreamsicle. Worldofballpythons.com and owalreptiles.com both have genetic calculators that will let you see the odds of what x what = what. Also vmsherps.com has some good materialon genetics that I found very helpful. Also john berry's book guide to ball python morphs volume 1 is a cook book for breeding morphs. Not sure I got the title right though. Good luck and doing your home work is the biggest factor at getting where you want to be.

[MisterKyte]

Also john berry's book guide to ball python morphs volume 1 is a cook book for breeding morphs. Not sure I got the title right though.

The full titles is Designer-Morphs, Volume One: Ball Python and Boa Constrictor, A Guide to Mutations and Variations by John Berry! Not sure where to buy it but on Amazon, it's priced about $60 which to be honest, I think there are sites that will provide the same info for free, like WorldofBallPythons.com and right here on this forum!

[loonunit]

The normal female doesn't help you at all with the dreamsicle project, because you're working with two recessive genes. All she'll produce is lots of possible het lavender albinos if bred to that male. (Which could help you produce a visual lavender, if you breed those daughters back to the dad. And having a visual lavender will make the project quite a bit easier. So she could help you several years down the line.)

It's fine start with those two hets and make the 50% possible het girls. It's a hard way to do it, but it does get your foot in the door. But you then need to find a double het male to breed the girls to, and their brothers aren't very good bets for that job.

But that's 3 or 4 years down the line, if you're starting with a hatchling female het pied. By the time you hatch those possible double het girls, it's likely that 100% guaranteed double het males will have come down in price. Come back when you hatch them, we'll tell you your options.

[BFE Pets]

Ty misterkyte the book is also out dated with all the new morphs that pop up seemingly weekly. But it is good reference material for the beginner.
Also to the op: consider the years of growing possible hets and feeding and maintanence of them and the frustrations of waiting to hit the genetic lotto by choosing to go the het to het route. Honestly I think you would save money in the long run buy buying a visual pied female this year and a visual lav albino male next year buy the time you raise up an army of possible hets and another thing to consider is that possible hets from an unknown breeder are about as valuable as normals so I really urge you to think on this for awhile before diving head first onto this path.

[The Serpent Merchant]

If you are on a strict budget then I would start with a male 100% het pied and a female 100% het pied. Breed them together until you produce a visual pied. Then get a male 100% het lavender Albino and a female lavender albino and breed them together until you get a visual lavender albino.

Once you have a visual pied and a visual lavender albino that you can breed (a male female pair: doesn't matter which is which) breed them together. This will produce a clutch that are all 100% het for pied and 100% het for lavender albino (aka 100% het dreamsicle) Breed a pair from this clutch together (or multiple pairs to increase your chances) These pairings have the potential to produce a dreamsicle.

It may seem like a long process but this is the most direct route without purchasing a visual pied and/or visual lavender albino. These types of projects take time and resources that is why these snakes cost so much.