OK I keep getting flack for keeping my snakes in a rack system

[3skulls]

I'll leave my tubs open if you leave your exo's open and we can see who likes what better :p haha

I kinda see what you are saying but you are wrong about passion. There is no spot cleaning on newsprint. Cleaning a 100 tubs on newsprint would take the same passion as spot cleaning 100 cages. I think it takes the same amount of passion no matter what you use.

Do people who keep birds have no passion for them?

[mattb]

This post is going way over board from what the OP was asking. It has gotten into a full blown debate.

Cort you started by saying that bp owners have no passion for our animals and that is so not the truth. If in your words they should be kept in a natural environment then they should be kept in their environment and not in captivity at all. Even your vivs are not totally natural do they have a fresh warm breeze going through them? Does it rain in them like it does in nature? Do you feed frozen or live?

Everyone has their own thoughts on things. IMO I don't see any need for people to own hots, but at the same time I am not going to tell someone that they shouldn't. It's just my own opinion.

But to come out and say that the owners out here have no passion for their snakes. Is totally uncalled for. I have never seen an animal on here that was kept in harsh conditions unless that person rescued it from someone that wasn't taking care of it properly.

In your last post you said that most snakes in captivity adapt to their surroundings. And for BPs that could be a tub with newspaper or with paper towels.

I have one normal that I keep in a tank and I have to fight all the time to keep the humidity right. I have 3 others in tubs that the humidity is dead on all the time as well as the heat.

I know this was a bit of rambling but like other people on here I do have passion for my animals.

[Gene Collins]

I agree this thread has drifted astray lol
Cort I don't think anyone on here will dispute your knowledge and experience. I for one appreciate experienced people such as yourself taking the time to help others on forums like these. However, my only beef is the manner in which you are relaying your knowledge. You can very easily have shared your information in a much less condescending manner and also with a lot less douchiness. I mean no disrespect. I agree you have been pretty rude and it's nowhere near anything like the religious fanatic reference you made. Information passed on in a rude condescending manner is rude regardless of the topic.

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[Crotalids]

So, your only problem is newspaper? Is that really it?

As long as I keep them on corrugated paper or paper towels you think that is perfectly fine?

I'm curious as to why you have such a huge problem with newspaper.


My understanding of venomous needing a more natural enclosure is that they generally camouflage with their environment to catch their prey. Not that they need it in order to catch their prey, but they perhaps sense that they blend in with their environment which makes them feel safer.

Does that make sense?

I really don't know a whole lot about hots since I don't keep them.

It's not just newspaper, it's the whole, let's just do the bare minimum - newspaper and water bowl.

Why does that only apply to venomous snakes? Look at GTP's etc, they blend in with their surroundings.

The ability to thrive on a given substrate is a process that has occured through this process and is a charactoristic of these snakes. This, even in your looked up definition, defines an evolution process. And if you want to pull out and compare, let me get the 4 degrees off my wall and fax them right over. . . You're becoming very defensive for "not being against tubs". You have made your point, but its obviously anti-flow, and that's fine people can think how they want as long as their not mistreating these animals. If you want to house your snakes in a naturalistic cage, that's fine, but don't insult or be little those who do not want to provide the same asthetic appeal as you apparently have. Many of the people here house more than 10+ snakes. It is possible to do this with "glass tanks" of any sorts, but not the best option in a cost vs benefit. Is there any true issues with keeping snakes in tubs? None that I have ever witnessed. Are there issues with keeping snakes in naturalistic cages, nope not if you're willing to keep it clean. Because while you rant on and on about the natural world. You need to remember that most snakes do not live in the same place that they deficate in. They are quite clean animals. Spot cleaning a naturalistic cage is not enough since liquird waste can not always be removed in this fashion. Through this urates will rise to harmful levels and eventually cause your snake to become ill. However, think how you want, this is not a form of thought police. But this is a place for a wealth of information.

That isn't evolution. Evolution would be if they developed something entirely new, to adapt to the paper substrate - for example if there was a change in their belly scales. They haven't really adapted to newspaper, they don't have any other choice. I could put them on a layer of laptops, and say oh they've adapted and evolved to living on a laptop.

It's perfectly feasible, right now i have 6 Vivs, and 4 exo's. I have plenty of friends, who have large collections 70+ snakes and every single one of them is in a proper set up. It's quite easy to clean a naturalistic environment, for one on certain substrates it's easy to see the area that's been defecated in and you remove all the surrounding substrate and a bit more and then disinfect. Secondly in certain enclosures i have bio active substrate.

I'll leave my tubs open if you leave your exo's open and we can see who likes what better :p haha

I kinda see what you are saying but you are wrong about passion. There is no spot cleaning on newsprint. Cleaning a 100 tubs on newsprint would take the same passion as spot cleaning 100 cages. I think it takes the same amount of passion no matter what you use.

Do people who keep birds have no passion for them?

Depends what type of enclosure they have them in.

This post is going way over board from what the OP was asking. It has gotten into a full blown debate.

Cort you started by saying that bp owners have no passion for our animals and that is so not the truth. If in your words they should be kept in a natural environment then they should be kept in their environment and not in captivity at all. Even your vivs are not totally natural do they have a fresh warm breeze going through them? Does it rain in them like it does in nature? Do you feed frozen or live?

Everyone has their own thoughts on things. IMO I don't see any need for people to own hots, but at the same time I am not going to tell someone that they shouldn't. It's just my own opinion.

But to come out and say that the owners out here have no passion for their snakes. Is totally uncalled for. I have never seen an animal on here that was kept in harsh conditions unless that person rescued it from someone that wasn't taking care of it properly.

In your last post you said that most snakes in captivity adapt to their surroundings. And for BPs that could be a tub with newspaper or with paper towels.

I have one normal that I keep in a tank and I have to fight all the time to keep the humidity right. I have 3 others in tubs that the humidity is dead on all the time as well as the heat.

I know this was a bit of rambling but like other people on here I do have passion for my animals.

I'm not saying all Royal owners, It's the ones who provide inadequate space and minimal decor that would provide some enrichment (You cannot say an elaborate set up wouldn't stimulate the snakes mind more than a boring one!)

That's a useless point, how can you say there is no reason to own Hots, but you own snakes? There is no reason to own a python either.

Like i said earlier, just because you cannot replicate every single aspect, does that mean you shouldn't try at all? No it doesn't.

- - - Updated - - -

I agree this thread has drifted astray lol
Cort I don't think anyone on here will dispute your knowledge and experience. I for one appreciate experienced people such as yourself taking the time to help others on forums like these. However, my only beef is the manner in which you are relaying your knowledge. You can very easily have shared your information in a much less condescending manner and also with a lot less douchiness. I mean no disrespect. I agree you have been pretty rude and it's nowhere near anything like the religious fanatic reference you made. Information passed on in a rude condescending manner is rude regardless of the topic.

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Like i said, there is no reason for anyone to be offended. It's just an opinion.

Why does everyone keep saying i've got knowledge and experience? lol. I haven't. I have with venomous snakes, that's it, that's all i've ever kept that's why. But a snake is a snake at the end of the day, regardless whether it's venomous or not. But i have dealt with animals that are far more easily stressed than ball pythons, with is why i reject the notion that a minimalistic set up is the best way to get them feeding etc.

[Kaorte]

Thus why I keep my GTPs and ATBs in semi-naturalistic enclosures. I use fake plants and cypress mulch.

Lets face the facts: For those of us who choose to keep a large number of animals, the bare minimum is what is healthiest for the animal, and easiest for the keeper to maintain. Very few people with one or two snakes keep them in bare bones setups. That is totally cool. But for me, I wouldn't be able to handle cleaning out 20+ naturalistic vivs. I can still provide the animals with food, water, and a clean place to hang out.

Its not really that a minimalistic setup gets a stressed snake to eat as much as it is about easily meeting its temperature and humidity requirements, and making it feel safe. People often suggest a bare bones setup over a naturalistic setup because for an inexperienced keeper, there are less variables to deal with in a bare bones setup, which means the keeper will have an easier time maintaining the required environment.

I too often see enormous aquariums with few hides and unregulated heat sources being used by new keepers. This is not the proper way to do a naturalistic enclosure.

[mattb]

I'm not saying all Royal owners, It's the ones who provide inadequate space and minimal decor that would provide some enrichment (You cannot say an elaborate set up wouldn't stimulate the snakes mind more than a boring one!)

That's a useless point, how can you say there is no reason to own Hots, but you own snakes? There is no reason to own a python either.

Like i said earlier, just because you cannot replicate every single aspect, does that mean you shouldn't try at all? No it doesn't.

About hots it is useless to say that. I am saying that we all have opinions and just like you with tubs mine is about hots the only difference is I don't attack people that want to keep hots. Just as you shouldn't attack people saying they are not passionate about keeping their BP or anything else in a way that they have been kept for years and years.

But we have gotten so far off the point of the OP that almost none one this thread has to do with his question.

To the OP I think you just need to explain to your friends about the places that a BP lives and tell them that they are more than comfortable in their enclosures.

[Kaorte]

But we have gotten so far off the point of the OP that almost none one this thread has to do with his question.

I on the other hand feel this debate is completely relevant to the question. Everyone here, even amongst the heated debate, has given pros and cons to housing in each kind of enclosure. I like a friendly debate every once in a while. It just goes to show that there is no single right way to care for these animals. The OP doesn't need to convince his friend that what he is doing is RIGHT, he just needs to convince them that it is one way of many to house these animals and that the animals are healthy under those conditions.

[reptileexperts]

Did he really just say people who provide their balls with enrichment? So they are like parrots now . . . makes perfect since why mine are so depressed. I'm glad I took them to the pet psychic that I saw on the add while I was putting newspaper down in my retics cage . . .

[mattb]

I on the other hand feel this debate is completely relevant to the question. Everyone here, even amongst the heated debate, has given pros and cons to housing in each kind of enclosure. I like a friendly debate every once in a while. It just goes to show that there is no single right way to care for these animals. The OP doesn't need to convince his friend that what he is doing is RIGHT, he just needs to convince them that it is one way of many to house these animals and that the animals are healthy under those conditions.

Yes you are correct. I was just a little steamed over the whole no passion comment. An opinion is an opinion but to start saying that people have no passion because they keep BPs in a minimal environment to me is just wrong.

I do agree with everything you have said. Thank you.

[KingPythons]

For science and reaserch professionals keep HOTS in tubs! Why in the world would they set up thousands of tanks with decor????? Come on man!