morphs or hets or normal

[RandyRemington]

Even if one leucistic male produces only a large number of fireballs bred to normals it still would not be proven beyond any shadow of doubt. Both of his parents where fireballs, maybe he is homozygous for a dominant or even co-dominant fireball gene but it's covered by a separate recessive leucistic gene. I guess the test would be if after a large number of leucistics where produced only from fireball and/or leucistic pairs and none of those leucistics ever produced normal babies.

I guess my point is again along the lines of "can you ever really prove anything". It seems like there will always be some small chance it isn't working the way we think it is (linked genes, sex linking, spontaneous mutations, etc.) but eventually you have to say there is enough evidence and move on. I applaud being cautious and as technically correct as possible. Hopefully this year's breedings will add enough data to satisfy everyone. In the mean time I suppose any potential buyers (if anything is even for sale yet) would have to weigh all available data and make up their own minds. I'm confident that it's co-dominant from what I've read but then again I don't have the funds to be a potential buyer so it really doesn't matter what I think.

[Marla]

Well, if there's more than one type of leucism in ball pythons, as there appears to be, it is also possible that we could have multiple dominance types, say co-dominant and recessive. I don't think we'll have enough data after this year's hatchings to be sure, but we should have enough data to give people a good idea of what their best bet is financially, if they're even in the ballpark.

[JLC]

I agree with you, Marla...I think it'll take a couple more generations (at least) to figure out what's going on with all the different Lucy's. Investing in them at this point would be a gamble...but it's probably not too risky of one.

One thing I've wondered....if the Lucys get ironed out and become more common...what will that do to the Snowball? Will people still be as enamored with a very expensive "almost white" snake when a true pure white one becomes available?

[Marla]

I don't think investing in a lucy is really much of a gamble as long as it's a healthy, feeding snake and F1 or greater so we know it's not impotent as a result of the leucism. Any healthy lucy should be able to produce more of the same in a generation or two, depending on dominance, and even hets are amazingly valuable at this point.

That's a good question about the snowballs, and I'll bet they will drop a bit with F2 and F3 leucistics getting out to more breeders, but I'm betting they'll still be valuable for years to come. Albinos have held their value very well even though they were the first proven bp morph, and I think to a degree the value of the morphs is based on how much it differs from the normal phenotype. That explains why blackbacks and burgundies can be had for a few hundred but albinos, spiders, and pastels are all multiple thousands of dollars.

[JLC]

I guess what I meant by Lucy's being a gamble is that I'm not 100% convinced on the whole co-dom thing with Fireballs and such. I'd hate to plop down tens of thousands of dollars on a pair of fireballs...only to find out they don't really make Lucys. Of course...if I HAD that kind of money to put down on some snakes, then I'm sure I could get a lot more info from the breeders about their track-records than we see on public websites, too!

I'm just looking forward to seeing how these play out and what their genetics actually are. Black-eyed or blue...they're both beautiful!

[Marla]

Agreed completely, Judy. Of course, if I had that kind of money to spend on snakes, I'd probably be making some African contacts to find out about distinctive wc snakes before they hit the shores here.

[JLC]

Oohhhh, wouldn't that be fun???
Of course, there's some serious gambling going on when you do that. Not only gambling on the genetics, but also on the health of the snake and if it will adjust to captivity well enough to breed. Still....if I had that kind of "spare" money rolling around....that'd be a more fun gamble than any table in Vegas!

[Marla]

Exactly! And the odds aren't going to be as likely to be as stacked against you because your exporters know you're more likely to come back and spend more big bucks if you were satisfied with the condition of the animals you bought before. Parasites, sure, a little dehydrated, ok, but live arrival and no neuro symptoms or obvious starvation for the big $$ snakes. How fun would that be, to call up your guy in Africa and say, "I need the next piebald you find, and I need it in good shape"?