Gopher snake breeding and housing

[wilomn]

My lord - what's with the aggression? Ok, if I was wrong I was wrong. How about politely informing me instead of this sarcastic crap over a technicality?

Your ignorance and willingness to spread it are not a technicality. Perhaps you should learn to keep your yap shut if you don't know what you're yapping about and not get your knickers knotted when someone who has dealt with your ignorant brethren time and again takes the time to correct your lack knowledge before you damage someone else who thinks you know what you're talking about. How about a little personal responsibility?

If you don't know what you're talking about, try not talking.

[kdreptiles]

It was not my intention to "spread ignorance". AS I SAID, I meant only gopher snakes to begin with, not just any snake. In that respect, thank you for correcting me. Which species is it that must be housed together year-round to breed? I've never heard of that, but would like to look it up. Can you enlighten me, please?

I really don't appreciate the rudeness.

[Skiploder]

Before the internet became the de-facto short cut to obtaining knowledge, we used to have to actually talk to each other in order to pass on knowledge.

Nowadays, we just Google the info we are looking for and take that info as gospel - hence the popularity of people like Melissa Kaplan and her on-line vault of truly crappy advice and hence the amazing amount of black and white opinions on husbandry issues - like, you can't keep any snakes together, heat lamps are evil, pine bedding: the Devil's substrate of choice.

If you keep two gopher snakes (or any pair of snakes for that matter) in a tupperware tub, with one hide, a narrow hot spot strip, feed them every two weeks and don't separate them at supper time, you are going to end up with two very stressed snakes and a potential feeding accident which will get reported to all as "cannibalism".

However, if you keep two gopher snakes of similar size and of the opposite sex in a large enough enclosure, with multiple hides, multiple thermoregulation zones and feed them separately, there will be no issues.

Now, you can go ahead and Google this crap and find several examples where one pit ate another - but rest assured, most of those incidences were due to operator error.

For many, many, many, many years I kept pits in pairs and never had one problem - not one. I don't do so now because I have so many that separating at feeding time would be entail spending an entire day in the snake house moving snakes. But that does not change the fact that many of the pit breeders who put these animals on the map cohabitated these animals together for decades (and in some cases, still do) without incident.

There are several species of snake that when we keep them in captivity, their temperament/behavior prohibits seasonally introducing mates. Due to the spatial limits we put on the in confinement, artificially introducing a mate causes so much stress that they will go off feed, not eat, get sick, etc.

Thrasops Jacksonii, Rhamnophis Aethiopissa, Psammophis Acutus, Rhamphiophis Rubropunctatus, etc. are all animals that need to be kept in year round pairs to get any mating activity from them. However, the enclosures must be adequately size, furnished and proper feeding protocols must be observed. These are animals that will react badly to sudden forced introductions in confined spaces.

Spilotes Pullatus are another species that are best kept together as a year round established pair. Again, proper cohabitation protocols must be followed.

When I got into Thrasops many years ago, I spoke to several keepers in Europe that were quick to tell me that they were cannibalistic and should be kept singly. None of these geniuses had ever been able to get them to mate. Throwing all caution to the wind, I began keeping pairs together and feeding them separately every four to five days. Since then, I've bred many clutches and never had one incident of cannibalism. To my knowledge, I am probably one of the only people to get these animals to mate in captivity.

I later found out that both of the keepers who warned me about cannibalism were feeding these snakes together. So, in the end, these were not legitimate acts of cannibalism, but instances in which two snakes went after the same prey item or smelled prey on the other.

There are species that should never be cohabitated (clelia/boiruna for example). But to baldly state that no snakes can be kept together is a patent falsehood.

When someone is new to the hobby and asks the question, the proper answer should be that depending on the species, the sex of the animals, the skill and experience of the keeper and the adequacy of the environment, there are many species that not only can be kept together, but need to be in order to mate in captivity.

[kdreptiles]

Great post, thank you. I'm sure this will help OP a lot, too.

[goopyguy]

Well, when I first got my bull pair, I kept them in the same cage for about a week. I didn't have any problems and they would often be in the hide curled up together. I think that the only time you need to worry is feeding time. Mine were also about the same size when I purchased them but my female is way bigger than my male now so I don't know if that could be a factor or not. Speaking of witch I thought males were supposed to be bigger but maybe I just have the odd pair.

[JLC]

Just a general note to ALL members who may read this thread...

As Skiploder has pointed out, due to the culture of the Internet, we are inundated with a lot of information being crammed down our throats as "facts" when it is simply not so. And by "crammed down our throats" I don't mean that any particular person has been aggressively stating a given fact, but that the "facts" get repeated so many times with such casual assumption of their truth that it may as well be crammed, because the very nature of the statement insists it must be true.

kdreptiles has a very valid point when they suggest that such missteps be politely corrected with better information and educational links. In a perfect world, I would love to see that every single time this sort of issue pops up.

But in all honesty, when it happens a hundred times a day, and the same few dozen folks have to address those issues (giving of THEIR free time and energies to help out) sometimes it's easier to just snark a bit. Snarking sometimes gets attention a LOT faster and more securely than a politely worded correction. Think about how many people will read this thread now, and how many will finally get Skiploder's point because there was a bit of drama in the thread that entertained them?

I would in no way encourage rude responses as a general rule. Ever. But we all do it sometimes. And not everyone cares so much for the "fuzzy" approach to education, not everyone cares to tiptoe on eggshells to make sure they don't offend another. And not everyone is skilled at expressing themselves without coming across as harsh or rude, even if that is not their intent. We can't control every post made by thousands of members. And we wouldn't want to force our veterans who have devoted so much of their time and efforts to the mission of BP.net to change their ways, when 98% of the time, their ways work.

I want to let kdreptiles know that I sincerely appreciate your approach to this thread and the flack that came your way. You responded well, without escalating the snarkiness, and you accepted the lessons that were given. That's what we're here for...even if it's not always the tastiest medicine in the cabinet.

[valhalha30]

I have had my hybrid colubrids housed together since they were pretty much hatched. They are both nearly a year and a half old, and of opposite gender, and I have never seen a problem with them. In fact.. when seperated, they act as if they are searching for eachother. I don't know if it's the Gopher in them... or if they really do like eachother's company xD
I feed them once every week, and seperately to reduce the risk of fighting or mistaking eachother for their prey. Like I said, they have no, zero, null, issues with eachother at all. It's actually really cool to have them housed together ^_^

[Neal]

It all depends on the species and the way you keep them together. The reason you were singled out is you're giving advice of things which you know nothing about. If you would of said something along the lines of you wouldn't house them together if you owned them because you don't know much about the species you wouldn't of been singled out.