very very strange

[CTReptileRescue]

Hi all,
This is accually a general question (but kinda directed at marcus)
Have you ever hear of a spider losing it's color (all of it) after a molt.
Strangest thing, our rio grand gold just molted on friday, and is now COMPLETELY jet black!!!!
We were so frieked out thinking one of the others somehow got at the rio grand, but everyone is accounted for! i swear the strangest thing I've ever seen!
Any ideas?
I'll try and get some good pics of her for you, but really all black!
Rusty

[Rosy_Boa]

all black is cool. i havent a idea what coulda happened to make it black though. but you know the saying; once you go black you dont come back. lol, j/k. call a local vet or somthing.

[pimp_n_python]

don't know anything about spiders so i can't help ya
maybe its a color changing spider and next molt it will be all white

[CTReptileRescue]

yeah, it's friekish, as for the vet, sadly our herp vet (and some surrounding vets) ask us..lol
The reason behind that is they NEVER see tarantulas in this state except for ours..lol
But it is very very strange, I wonder if Marcus has ever seen this, he would be the one to check with on this forum..lol
I'll be taking pics soon, and if marcus isn't sure I'll run it by some arachnologist I've spoken with before.
Thanks
Rusty

[pimp_n_python]

sounds like a plan to me

[CTReptileRescue]

here is what she is supposed to look like.
(she was very similar, this is not an accual pic of her (lost all pics when pc crashed) but this is a pic of the same viabrant colored species...

Now here is her after the molting, I don't know where her color went:


Bad pic but you get the idea... She is starting to get color on the tips of her urticulating hairs on her rump (as you can sort of see by my horrible picture)
Still very strange. I spoke with another hobbiest involved in breeding and a member of the amarican tarantula society, he mentioned his best guess would be maybe something to do with the fluid between the "new" spider and it's molt led to discoloration and maybe it will come back in a week. Yet he did admit he has never seen or heard of such an occurance.
So who knows
Rusty
PS first T pic is from Swifts invertabrates web site

[FourFeathers]

Hi Rusty,

Aphonopelma moderatum, or "Rio Grande Gold" is a beautiful species. One of the most attractive of North American species. They are a bit feisty so I wouldn't reccomend handling this one.

As for it changing color, if I'm not mistaken, this species does turn black, or at least the males do when they mature.

Check it & see if you can see tibial spurs on the underside of the first two legs (about halfway down the leg). They will be little black spike looking things. Also, are the pedipalps swollen? Kinda look like boxing gloves? Does he look a little long in the legs now?

If these things exist, it's a boy! He'll soon be making sperm webs and that's a pretty cool site.

I'll have to check to be sure, but I'm almost postive that this is the species that the males turn black when they have their ultimate molt. If it is a male, & he has matured, he won't have much longer to be around. He'll soon me very active and clawing at the sides of his enclosure trying to get out to go find a female to mate with.

Hope this helps.

[FourFeathers]

Rusty,

I posed a query to the American Tarantula Society about your A. moderatum.

The first response was from Brent H. I'm not exactly sure what his "title" is but I did meet him last June at a spider party that he was able to attend. He's, to my understanding, a scientist or in the field of science and does have some input on "describing" species, meaning he's the man.

Second response is from Stanley Schultz, who is the President of the American Tarantula Society and is the author of (along with his wife) the Tarantula Keepers Guide which is also the "bible" to tarantula keepers. Also, Stanley is THE MAN.

Here's is their response:

Marcus, Brent and All:

On Thu, 29 Jan 2004, Marcus wrote:

> Is this the species that the males turn black on their ultimate molt?
>
>
> Marcus



On Thu, 29 Jan 2004, Brent E. Hendrixson wrote:

> Among many (and depends on what you consider to be A. moderatum)!
>
> The 'undescribed' species in southern New Mexico and western Texas does
> the same thing... a few "species" in southeastern AZ show a similar
> phenomenon.
>
> Brent

(Brent: Good to hear from you! Things are going well?)


By purely anecdotal experience, the species that we call 'moderatum' or
Rio Grande gold is the one with an unusual orange/tan color and dark brown
to black segments on its legs. The exact shade and intensity seems to
depend on the color of the surrounding ground and individual variations
within a population. While some are a pale sand color, we've seen some
that are almost brisk red. All have a shiny, jet black venter (bottom
side). You can see photos of examples on the front cover, page 77 and page
78 of the GUIDE.

The individuals pictured are either mature females or immatures of either
sex. Thus, *IMMATURE* males are colored identically to the photos, small
individual variations being ignored. (Because we know the individual on
the cover, we are certain it was a mature female.)

In *MATURE* males the legs, carapace, opisthosoma and venter, in fact the
entire animal, are all jet black, although there may be a slight
difference in texture between carapace, opisthosoma and venter.

We have collected literally hundreds of these from the area within about
15 miles (~24 km) of the Rio Grande river from Rio Grande City (Starr
county) all the way up to Del Rio (southern extreme of Valverde county),
but only on the Texas side, not in Mexico. (We've not gone into Mexico and
certainly wouldn't care to be discovered catching tarantulas there.) In
spite of over 20 years of searching, we've not found 'moderatum' anywhere
else, most signifiacntly farther inland.

There are several (some would say many) other species of tarantulas native
to *TEXAS*, but as far as I know (check me on this, SB, Brent and Rick)
there are no other *TEXAS* species colored similar to 'moderatum.'
(Although A. chalcodes from *ARIZONA* and perhaps northern Mexico looks a
lot like 'moderatum' but is larger. Also, milder in temperament.) The
mature females and immatures of either sex of all of these others are some
shade of tan to dark brown, almost but not quite jet black, and certainly
not shiny jet black. Few if any have darker bands on their legs and the
color of their venter is generally the same as the rest of their body, not
a contrasting jet black. The females and the immatures may also have
carapaces of differing color (see page 72 in the GUIDE), and interstingly,
the shade or hue of their carapaces may change between molts, at least in
captive individuals.

Of these other species, the males are dark brown to black, perhaps half
again as large as the male 'moderatums,' and almost all of them possess a
carapace of a contrasting shade from a bright coppery gold to merely a
different flavor of brown.

In the field, if you find a smallish, jet black, mature, male tarantula
within about 15 miles (24 km) of the Rio Grande River in southwestern
Texas or probably even across the river in Mexico, you may assume that
it's a male 'moderatum' until you find conflicting evidence.

Farther away from the river than this, or with a larger animal, or with a
different color scheme, all bets are off. As Brent pointed out, several
other species of Texas tarantulas also produce solid black adult males,
although again, as far as I know, none are absolutely jet black like
'moderatum.'

In a private collection, if you had a mature male 'moderatum' and
coincidentally a mature male of some other Texas species and managed to
get them confused, the smaller, jet black tarantula is the 'moderatum.'

Next question: "What exactly is a 'moderatum?' Your guess is as good as
mine, and none of the world's arachnologists, amateur, professional or
wannabees (like me), seem to be able to make sense of them.

In the absence of an official proclamation and verifiable evidence I take
the easy way out. If they're colored this way, that's what they are. If
not, they're something else.

I sincerely hope that this adds immensely to the confusion. My strategy is
that sooner or later someone will become so frustrated with genus
Aphonopelma or so irritated with blokes like me, that they'll actually
devote their lives to unsnarling the mess just to shut us up!

Any takers?


Peace, health, wisdom and wealth. Live long and prosper.


Stan Schultz
Vice-President, AMERICAN TARANTULA SOCIETY


\|/ \|/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~| |~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Calgary, Alberta, Canada | | path hold
P: (403) 230-1911 | | large hairy
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[FourFeathers]

My error: Stanley Schultz is the vice president of the ATS.

Rhys Brigida is the president.

[CTReptileRescue]

Hey Marcus,
Thanks so much, man I was getting worried , It's been hard for me to find good info, and I actually just got around to finally posting on the ATS group, so I was close to aking them, thanks for saving me the time..lol
Schultz is brilliant! or at least he writes well. we use his book for many reasons, and I have actually given a copy to our vet so she doesn't call us everytime she has a question. I really apreciate your help.
To bad this means he is on his way out, nice little spider, raised him from a sling, but what are ya gonna do right?
Thanks so much again for your help!
Rusty