Has desert female breeding got anywhere?

[Royal Hijinx]

The keep them cool thing came from the theory they weren't properly thermoregulating the eggs inside of them and cooking them causing the slugs. I haven't herd of egg binding being normal.

I do not know that it is normal, but seems to be more common as more people are trying to breed females.

[RobNJ]

as soon as the price of female deserts reflects the lack of 'investment' capability I will probably buy one.

I won't...I already have "pet" snakes.

I don't see how it could possibly be so, from a physiological perspective. Physical abnormality of the reproductive system due to mutation makes sense--how does 'keep them cooler and they'll lay good eggs' actually make sense? Upon what is it based? What physiological process COULD cause such a thing?

Dr. Del summed it up perfectly in post #38...there's no real reason behind the thinking, only that there's nothing else we can think of that may be the problem. When worries set in, we'll go to all sorts of lengths to figure out problems, no matter how irrational the train of thought may be. I think when you add in the fact that most people working with ball pythons have a very basic understanding of genetics at best, and and have such varying thoughts as to even the most simple of husbandry techniques/practices, then grasping at straws to figure things out beyond our understanding is the next logical step.

[Brandon Osborne]

Bob Clark though the same thing with his Leusistic Burmese and she never did reproduce...he chalked it up to the Morph must make it infertile....yet now they produce them....
Same thing was said about Caramel BPs...like I stated to many large breeders are working with them and soon info will be posted on the secret to breeding them. I would be willing to say its a temp thing.
Travis
Lair of Dragons

Bob's leucy was later diagnosed with pseudamonas, which at the time was rampant throughout many burm collections in the US.

[marshall]

The Desert is a really interesting topic. I think there are a number of things keeping the price high based on the information around. First, the snake makes crazy combos. If the Desert made ugly or poor combos, we wouldn't even be talking about it anymore. Second there has been some serious money invested in the Desert. It is hard to let something go when you have money invested. Also based on the past not all information is shared on a morph. So because of the first two people are skeptical that what they hear may or may not be true. Everyone wants the Desert to produce.

Adding genes does not appear to help.

I am not so sure about adding genes. I have produced a number of Desert and Desert combos including a 4 gene combo female. When I look at the Desert is seem to be a skinny snake. My Tiger breeder looks like he is heading down hill at any moment. He sporadically eats but breeds like crazy. All my 2011 productions eats extremely well. I feed once a week and they eat each time with only the occasional skip. But they all still look on the under fed side. Almost triangular in shape. They don't seem to have the shape or pack on the weight like a normal ball python. But the 4 gene combo looks like a normal ball python. I am not saying she will produce or even lay eggs but just my observations.



I am not holding my breath. They make great combos and I want to make more. Just wanted to add my person experience with the Desert. The female will not be an 18 month breeder. She will be a 3 year girl for sure.

[h00blah]

Great post, Marshall! Hope that quad girl produces for you !!!

[RandyRemington]

Sorry for the side track but Bob Clark's leucistic burm was a great motivator for me when I first got into serious snake keeping (way back when you sent a self-addressed stamped envelope to get a price list and considered yourself very lucky to get an actual photo along with the list). Anyway, Brandon, do you think the leucistic burms now are the same thing (i.e. will they look that clean white at that size)? That one of Bob's never bred, right? I read once there was another one (maybe Indian python) back in the 50’s. Who ever thought the US would lead the way in banning …

[Lair of Dragons]

Yes, Bobs Burmese never bred before it died...he tried everything...even artificial simulation...
Randy I hear you...I held that snake...I have a polaroid pic...(yes dating myself)...holding that snake..I still have a laminated autographed pic of the leusistic burm hanging on my incubator that I have held onto for over 20 years..
I use to work for Wes Harris in OKC at his pet store when he had it, him and Bob are still good friends to this day and my first three Burms were bought from Bob...I hand picked them out of the egg...one 100% het female and 1.1 Albinos back when the cost a lot more than today.
Serious motivation back then seeing Bobs facility I just should have stuck with it instead of taking a 15 year break...ohh where I would be now ...lol
Travis
Lair of Dragons

[Serpent_Nirvana]

I wish I knew how close the caramel females are to infertile. I've got a chance to produce my first caramel this year. If I hatch a female that is very very unlikely to produce any good eggs I'll probably quietly look for someone to give her to as a pet rather than advertise her at a super low price ticking off other breeders who might think they should be more. Maybe the lack of for sale desert females is due to a similar reluctance to advertise them at what they might be valued at now.

Randy -- I know it's not all that scientific, but I did a rough tally a year or so ago based on data scrounged from the Internet that suggests a 2:1 slug:egg ratio for caramel females.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...=1#post1572476

It's enough to keep me from wanting to spend $100's on a caramel female, that's for sure, or even from really wanting a female as a cornerstone for a project. However, it wouldn't be enough to keep me from breeding a caramel female if I did encounter a really nice looking one from a good bloodline at a good price (or produce a nice holdback from a caramel x het breeding).

I haven't found a single viable report of fertile eggs from a desert female, however ... What concerns me even more about the deserts is, as has already been mentioned, the number of reports of desert females dying or requiring surgery secondary to pregnancy.

I love the deserts, and moreover, there are desert combos out there (enchi desert lesser, etc.) that absolutely blow me away. The prospect of infertile or subfertile females also doesn't really scare me. What does scare me is the idea that the females I produce may potentially die if bred. It's great to place animals in pet homes, but for an animal with the potential for a 40+ year lifespan, it would be easy enough for her to change hands a few times and wind up with an uninformed owner.

So for me to make an informed decision on starting a desert project, I would want to know not whether or not the females are fertile (to me it looks as though they are not, and I would only ever consider buying a male), but whether or not any attempt to breed a desert female is likely to be fatal to her. If it is highly likely to be fatal, then I would feel very uncertain about producing this morph due to the future welfare of my desert females.

[Emilio]

Why would that make any difference...and I'm truly curious to your thoughts, not being combative. Spiders still wobble when combined with other mutations. The thought process behind mutations essentially being "fixed" by entirely separate mutations is baffling to me...but then again, I don't claim to be well versed in genetic mutations or how they work.

I was told by a big breeder recently that one of the main problems with the desert gene is them feeding consistently. My thoughts are simple, you mix Spiders into deserts and maybe just maybe you get an animal that feed's and breed's better. In my opinion Spiders are the best feeding and breeding ball pythons hands down, I'm thinking maybe just maybe they can offset some of the desert's weaknesses.

[dr del]

I was told by a big breeder recently that one of the main problems with the desert gene is them feeding consistently. My thoughts are simple, you mix Spiders into deserts and maybe just maybe you get an animal that feed's and breed's better. In my opinion Spiders are the best feeding and breeding ball pythons hands down, I'm thinking maybe just maybe they can offset some of the desert's weaknesses.

I wondered the same thing about the sub-saharan giants.