Who makes their own roach chow?

[EverEvolvingExotics]

I went and gathered a bunch of various dry foods to blend together to make my own roach chow for the dubia colony I am picking up tomorrow. I am hoping for others opinions on this subject. I already made my first batch but nutrition is an ever evolving subject. You are what you eat and I want to make sure I'm feeding my creatures the best diet possible.

Apart from the dry mix I will be providing left over crested gecko diet and fresh fruits and vegetables on a regular basis.

[jasbus]

I use leftover rodent block dust, dog food and dried milk powder grinded up in a coffee grinder...

[jasbus]

grinded up in a coffee grinder...

that there's some good english.


....ground up in a coffee grinder....

[Don]

I get the cheapest cat food I can find and grind it up in a coffee grinder. In addition, I will use the dust left over in the bottom of Harlan rodent food bags (soon to be switching over to hog chow). Around once per week, I'll throw in an apple or some other type of fruit. They are roaches, they will eat just about anything.

My large colony has been up and running for over four years. I feed bearded dragons and chameleons from my colony. When the colony gets too big (which is fairly often) I give a bunch away or sell off some of the excess.

Good luck. And Jasbus, quit being so hard on yourself. You can grinded it up if you want!

[EverEvolvingExotics]

Thanks, I went out and bought cat food, all-bran, and oats, I then added flax seed, and honey nut cheerios to sweeten it up. It only took a few minutes to blend it all together and it's sitting in a rubbermaid storage pouring-thing-a-ma-bob. I will continue to do some research. I've read a little that too much protein in roaches diet is actually causing more harm then good. I'd like to dig deeper into this topic.

Roaches will eat anything, but if we only provide them with the same foods I'm not sure the reptiles will get all the nutrients? For now I'm doing basically the same thing you guys are doing. I'll see how it goes...

Thanks for the input.

[Don]

I supplement the roaches with calcium dust and also soldier grubs. You can also dust the roaches with vitamins. Like I've said, I've been feeding these for over four years and personally, I consider it a waste of money to feed roaches anything other than the cheapest food I can get. My reptiles are very healthy and have had no issues with a non-varied diet for the roaches. However, I feed my dragons fresh greens and other treats. My chameleons get supplemented with soldier grubs that I raise myself.

The Soldier Grubs get a very varied diet, it is whatever we have left over from dinner!

[EverEvolvingExotics]

I figured since you've been doing this for four years you must be doing something right. I bred dubias for around a year, a few years ago. I fed cheap dog food and veggies at the time with zero issues. The reason I had concerns was due to reading this article from Allen Repash, someone I highly respect. Let me know what you think. Here is the direct link below and I will post it as well for those who don't want to click it.

http://www.forums.repashy.com/diets-...tile-gout.html

"Hey guys, I just put this article together for the Nutrition section of the website and thought I would post it here and see what you guys think.

The Roach Revolution Revelation (A theory about Reptile Gout)

The current trend of the increased usage of Cockroaches as feeders, may have some unforeseen effects on Reptile Nutrition. There are several reasons that Roaches have increased in popularity as feeders. First, the Cricket virus that nearly wiped out the Domestic House Cricket, has depleted Cricket quality, cost, and availability. Second, Hobbyists and Breeders have discovered that keeping and breeding Roaches is much easier than Crickets, and there are many different species that can be chosen from to suite individual preferences.

I was recently researching some developmental feedback I had received from one of my new product testers who was helping me in the development of my” Bug Burger” which is a gel based complete insect diet.
In the course of testing and developing the product, I stumbled upon an issue that I think should be noted by all Animal keepers who are using roaches as a part of their insectivore diets. I will share here, the initial issues and the resulting information I learned in conjunction with researching the problem.

Bug Burger is a product I recently launched after two years of product testing and development. The product is sold as a powdered formula that is hydrated and heated, to create a solid gel product that provides both nutrition, and hydration for feeder insects. The primary insect I targeted and tested was the Cricket. Once I was happy with the formula and how it worked for Crickets and Roaches to a smaller degree, I started sending it out for feedback from my product development team of Breeders and Keepers. (Beta Team)

After about three months, I had a single report from a Beta Team member that they had experienced an unexpectedly high mortality rate in one of the Roach colonies that had been fed the Bug Burger exclusively.

We corresponded about the issue at length and some changes were noted in their protocol that was noteworthy. I was informed that during the first 10 weeks of testing, the Bug Burger was fed until totally consumed, then replaced the following day. This meant that there was a period of approximately 12-24 hours that the Roaches (B dubia in this case) were going without food. During a correspondence at this time, this protocol came up in discussion, and I asked that they put enough Bug Burger in the container so that the Roaches would never run out….. Adding a new block of Gel before the older one was totally consumed.

Two weeks after this change was made, the report came in that there was a higher than normal loss of only adult Roaches. This led to my sleepless night surfing the web looking for answers, or someone who could help.

This led me to the University of Massachusetts Amherst website, and the web page of Joe Kunkel, who has a very informative Website on Cockroaches, which he has studied extensively. The website gave me some clues, and by further researching his research references, and through personal communication, I made some very interesting observations, which fueled further testing and product development.

I emailed Professor Kunkel with the report of my feedback issue, as well as nutritional details on the Bug Burger, and his simple response fueled and directed me to learn quite a bit about Roach nutrition.

“My initial reading of your composition is that it has to much protein (>20%). 4% protein is sufficient to support Blattella germanica and if it is >20% they will accumulate waste uric acid in their fat body which could be lethal in certain situations.” Joe.

With this response, further correspondence, and more research, I learned that Roaches are very different than most other Insects. First, they have developed to survive on very low levels of protein. 4%, compared to around 10% for Crickets. More interesting however was the fact that as part of their evolution to survive on low levels of protein, they have developed the unique ability to convert excess dietary protein to Uric Acid, which can be stored in the body and then converted back to protein when the diet is deficient, through a symbiotic relationship with a bacterium. (reference)

In the development of my Bug Burger product, and because I had been focused on Crickets as the primary consumer of the product, I had formulated about 23% protein into the product. This was based on having personally raised crickets on a commercial scale during the course of my partnership as co-owner of Sandfire Dragon Ranch. 20%-25% protein diets (chicken starter mash) did a great job of growing crickets quickly. I also personally raised a lot of Roaches on dry dog food, which has a similar level of protein, so thought this would work just fine for my Bug Burger Formula.

So taking what I learned about roaches, and the feedback from Joe, I hypothesized that the Crash that was observed was caused by the change in protocol from “feeding after the food was gone” to “don’t let them ever run out” was enough difference to overdose the roaches on protein. I questioned the fact that I had raised a lot of roaches on 20% protein dry diets, but the consumption level of dry diet is much less with roaches than the Bug Burger. Roaches just seem to devour this formula like it is going out of style, so I believe that this higher consumption rate creates enough difference to cause the crash. Noteworthy also, is that the crash was only observed in mature adult Roaches, which could be explained by the fact that growing Roaches would metabolize protein at a higher rate in order to put on body mass, while a mature adult Roach would have a lower protein requirement, and thus, begin storing Uric Acid sooner.
In one study on German Cockroaches, Field-Collected roaches contained an average of around 15 µg/mg, while those fed a 24% protein rodent chow, had an average level of 125 µg/mg. Imagine what the levels would be in a roach fed the commonly used cat foods that contain around 40% protein.

I quickly went to the Lab and reformulated a new batch of Bug Burger, reducing the level of protein from 23% down to around 12%. My research told me that this should be enough for Crickets, and not be too much for Roaches, meaning I could still have one product that would work for both. This new formula went out to the Beta Team with a “don’t let them ever run out” order, and the reported crash was not reproduced, while both Roach and Cricket growth and development was unaffected.

So what does all this have to do with Gout? Well, learning how roaches store Uric Acid, rather than excreting it in Urates like other insects, made a little light bulb go off in my head. Uric Acid in most Insects and Vertebrates is excreted through either the Urine, or Urates (in the case of Reptiles). Buildup of Uric Acid in the blood can be caused by a combination of factors. High dietary levels of protein, combined with environmental factors such as dehydration (very common in captive reptiles) can decrease renal (kidney function), which is what filters the Uric Acid from the blood. When Uric Acid builds up in the blood, it can be deposited as crystals throughout the body, often seen as swollen limbs or joint inflammation.

When we combine the fact that Uric Acid buildup in the blood is the primary cause of Gout, and the fact that Roaches fed a diet higher than 15% protein will store large amounts of Uric Acid in their bodies, it is not hard to conclude that Roaches fed a typical high protein diet such as most commercial insect feeds and commonly used cat and dog food, that we are literally pumping our Herps full of excess Uric Acid using this combination.
Combine this with the fact that in my opinion, chronic dehydration is one of the biggest unseen pressures on Reptile health in captivity, and we have a recipe for disaster. Decreased kidney function (Renal dysfunction) is one of the first things affected by dehydration. A reptile cage designed with spot heat and air recirculation is not a lot different to a commercial dehydrator that turns meat into beef jerky!

Many Reptiles do not need supplemental water in nature because they don’t live under such conditions, and they can get all the moisture they need from their diet. Because of this, many Reptiles do not easily recognize still water. Nearly all Reptiles will recognize dripping water, but in captivity, this is difficult to provide on a regular basis.

Throw into the mix, other factors such as poor supplementation, and sub optimal temperatures, and we have a lot of reasons that Uric Acid buildup can become a very real concern in the husbandry of Reptiles.
Looking further, I think that all feeder insects should probably be on a diet of less than 15% protein. There simply isn’t a reason to have more than this unless you are a commercial cricket breeder trying to maximize growth. Crickets don’ t store Uric Acid like Roaches do, but excess protein can still create higher levels of Uric Acid in the body of these and other insects.

I have often heard that people who make their own veggie based cricket feeds or “gutloads” have sworn that they had healthier Reptiles compared to using commercial feeds and gutloads, and I always wondered why…. Maybe this writing can shed some light on the issue and spawn further research. Most diets mixed together out of various greens are going to be in the 10% - 13% protein range (DMB) based on typical analysis…… Some food for thought… so to speak.

Please note, that I put this together in a couple of hours, and this is by no means a proven theory. I do believe that what I have found warrants a closer look by someone who has the time to dig deep into the research that has been done on Uric Acid storage by Cockroaches fed high protein diets. I would like to invite others to look deeper into this idea and report your own conclusions.

Cheers, Allen Repashy "
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[Don]

eel, I can not explain this person's experience. I just looked at the bag of cat food that I use and it is 30% protein. Like I said, I also supplement with fruit, apples, bananas, oranges whatever we have that may not have been eaten by the family - around one per week. Then I will dump the bottom of our Harlan rodent food in there with the colony (which I think is 18% protein) when I hit the bottom of the bag.

The only other thing I do is keep a bowl of water crystal gel in the container. I buy the crystals in bulk from a garden shop and mix my own. It is very inexpensive that way.

When I first got our colony, I was very pumped and looked for only the best food for them. After awhile, I just shrugged and told myself "they're roaches". I've expanded my colony to two 55 gallon containers, but realized I really don't want to be the 'roach man'. So, I went back down to one colony. There are still enough to keep a local reptile shop with a good supply and some friends with geckos fully supplied. As well as enough to feed two bearded dragons and two chameleons.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, just letting you know what has worked for me. I feel it is kind of like Mike Cavanaugh with his ASF's. He started out with food hoppers, high quality rodent food, etc. Now he feeds hog chow without hoppers. After you do this for awhile, you look for the most efficient way to do things. The way I do it is from trial and error. It works for me.

Good luck with your colony.

Edit: After reviewing your article again, I just may start grinding up what I feed our rats (now Harlan, soon to be hog grower when I run out of Harlan). That would save me from the extra expense of cat food. We'll see how that works. Thanks for the article. It gave me a new idea to make my operation even more efficient!

Don

[EverEvolvingExotics]

I am going to use the chow I've made at least until I run out of all the food I've bought. I'd like to try chicken feed the next time since I don't have any rodents. I laughed pretty hard when you wrote, "I don't want to be know as the roach guy." I try not to tell people about them, it's worse than having snakes in your home.

I found the article interesting and it would be great to hear more on this subject. Thanks for all the advice. I figured since I will be providing left over crested gecko diet, fruits, and veggies I won't have to worry too much about them overdosing on protein any time soon.

[Don]

You are right about worse than snakes in the home. Only people who have geckos or dragons know I even have them. When I first got them, my wife insisted I keep them in the garage. Finally, she agreed to let me bring them in the house. Now they live in my basement. If I wanted to, I know I could easily become the "roach guy" and supply anyone in my area with them, but I keep my colony manageable.

BTW, my ASF's love them too as a treat. The only down side is I've become allergic to them. My wife now has to pull the feeders. I've read that it is not unusual to develop allergies. So, don't stir them up too much.