Taking another look at the "spider wobble"

[OhhWatALoser]

I've talked with a few people on here about this, I've also talked to a few big breeder about this, and they have some stories like mine, and with the recent "spider wobble" threads, i figure this might be worth publicly talking about.

My observations with my own spider....100% no wobble, she is kept in a rack system with a hide, conditions are standard, stress free as I can make it for her.

Friend of mines story... he produced a fire spider, very minimal wobble, kept in a rack system, good conditions, he sold it, couple months later this snake comes back with the worst wobble I have ever seen in real life, all I could describe it as is just it seemed like it was flipping out constantly, almost like the pearl in MA Balls NERD video (not as bad, but pretty close)

He said the snake came back because of the wobble and it couldn't eat, he also said the snake was kept in poor condition and not taken care of properly, I don't know the details beyond that. magically less than a month of staying at his place, it was back to a minimal wobble, eating fine fire spider.

He also has a couple no wobble spiders and a couple minimal wobble spiders, the untrained eye wouldn't notice anything with any of them.

Also remember people report spider may only show wobble during eating, introduction to other snakes for breeding, and other more than average stress situations.

My theory: The spider wobble is here to stay, it is linked to the gene, but it could possibly be reduce by other factors. I see stress levels might play a big factor in the amount of wobble they show. Also every snake is different, so my setup may not be right for another snake, but I have personally seen how changing homes can bring a minimal wobble, to horrible wobble, to minimal wobble again.

I know this may be a touchy subject, because if someone has a "bad wobbling" spider they may feel like i'm saying their not taking care of their snake correctly. I'm not attacking anyone, there may be spider that will always have the bad wobble, but also it may need extra requirements to feel less stressed, extra hide, more foliage, less foliage (maybe overwhelmed by the things around it), its all theory, but maybe it has merit? Heck maybe the 2 hide, water bowl, cookie cutter setup maybe not be right for every ball python in general, and the spider just show it, each snake is their own. again all theory.

So do you guys have any stories about a spider changing it wobble severeness due to some sort of factor? I know I've talked to some of you through pm, but i'm not gonna call anyone out.

[rabernet]

One of my males was a train wreck as a baby. He's since grown out of it and displays very minimal wobble. I've also heard of spiders that showed almost zero wobble (no wobble to those not sure what they're looking for) that a few years later displayed a lot of twisting and looping.

Unless you keep a spider for life, you can't definitively state that a non-wobbler is always going to be so.

[BPelizabeth]

I have found both with my spider and my bee that as babies their wobbles or corkscrews were more intense. Now that they are older they are much better. However with that being I said with stress and or excitement I do see signs of it. I think with such poor conditions it can make it worse.

[cinderbird]

i have two female spiders, 100% related (From the same clutch). one has a light wobble, the other one will do some loopdyloops, especially around feeding time. Both are kept in 15qt tubs, in a dark rack with appropriate temps.

[snakesRkewl]

I have an 08 male spider that showed very little wobble if any till he hit 8 months old.
Now he's a full blown corkscrewing wobbling wreck.
He's always been in tubs since he was a hatchling, has never been stressed as far as I know, has always eaten and has rarely missed a meal since he was a baby.

[darkbloodwyvern]

I think you have a valid point! But as you said EVERY snake is different. It sounds like the majority of spiders get wobblier as they get stressed, and babies tend to be a bit more high strung than adults. But I'm also suspecting that some spiders may have more than just a few crossed wires that might make them get worse as they age. I'm curious to know whether it seems like these are the minority.

[Emilio]

While I only own three spiders I can agree with the OP stress and excitement bring out there special behavior wobble etc. That said I've noticed that my spiders are my most curious ball pythons and I absolutely love that about them.

I too like many have said can say that they are great eaters and breeders. Just my two cents I think spiders are a must have morph.

Droid!!!! yEE

[mainbutter]

I 100% agree that stress plays a factor in how much they wobble. I've always seen the biggest spider wobbles during handling, and while it may not be NEGATIVE stress, handling is certainly ACTIVE and therefore a stressor.

Heck maybe the 2 hide, water bowl, cookie cutter setup maybe not be right for every ball python in general

Too few people realize this. I might replace the word "right" with "optimum", but I certainly agree that snakes are individuals and each may react differently to similar situations.

[Serpent_Nirvana]

I have had very similar observations as the OP has (though not as extreme), and I've had very similar thoughts along the same lines.

I own four snakes with the spider gene; two spider females (both '08), a bumblebee male (also '08) and a spinner male ('10).

I have not yet observed any neurologic derangement in the spinner at ALL, despite the fact that I know that his initial QT setup was suboptimal -- previous snakes had done great in the same exact setup, but the spinner wouldn't eat until I got him into a little shoebox tub rack. (It really made me wonder how people bred ball pythons before rack systems, ha!) So, he was clearly stressed until I fixed his setup, but still I have yet to see him wobble, spin or do anything loopy.

After over a year and a half of being 100% "normal," the bigger '08 female will sometimes act squirrelly during feeding. Sometimes it's fairly subtle, sometimes less so. Her aim is just as good as any other BP, but sometimes she will strike in weird ways. In 2009 I took her to an education program and she didn't do a single loopy thing. I think I used her once or twice this year as well, with no loopiness. I can't recall my smaller spider girl ever doing anything wibbly.

Bumblebee is normal about 80% of the time, but if he gets stressed, he loopies -- or at least he used to. When I first got him home, he spun, and I almost cried (I'd read about the "wobble" but never seen anything firsthand). He would do this on rare occasions but as he settled in it got less and less frequent. He then did it again when I would put him into a strange environment (including a female's tub). Knock on wood, I haven't seen him do it at all for a good six months to a year, and lately he has seemed about as "normal" as a BP can get. (Including during breeding -- he is a machine -- feeding -- also a machine -- and photography sessions.)

Because of these experiences, I have sometimes wondered if we can potentially use the "spins" as an indicator that the snake is telling us it isn't happy ... I don't know. Stories like Robin's, cinderbird's and SnakeRkewl's (where the spider was either normal, and got really bad, or was really bad, and got better, but in all cases are kept in optimal environments with no major changes) make me think otherwise. (Also make me really wonder what the heck is going on internally ..? I can think of diseases that are degenerative, and diseases that improve, but almost nothing that sometimes does either one ... Can anyone else?) However, I've heard enough stories like mine and the OP's that I can't help but wonder ...

The docs are gonna get really sick of hearing about wobbly snakes when I'm on neuro next year.

[Serpent_Nirvana]

One more thought: Canine narcolepsy gets much worse when the dogs are excited (ie, during feeding). It is due to a defect in a certain receptor in the dogs' neurons. When I mentioned the spider ball "wobble" to my neuro prof last year, he said it sounded like it could be something like that (a receptor mutation or neurotransmitter deficiency).

Also, the spider "wobble" seems fairly similar to the Enigma loopies (from what I know about it -- not into leopard geckos at all). I recall reading mention of a study that did MRIs on Enigmas and found no visible anatomic defects, suggesting a problem on a molecular and not anatomic level.

Neuro + genetics + snakes = I geek out.