Do all morphs get "head wobble"?

[Genetics Breeder]

hey rabernet, its a neverending battle over there. a wise person told me once "the fool bumps his gums while the wise move on."

It's only never ending because you never post what you accused me of, because you can't quote it by what I wrote.

[Genetics Breeder]

So how do you quantify happiness in a ball python? Most of us who work with them will quantify it with the fact that they eat, breed and grow. Unhappy = stressed. Stressed = not eating, not breeding, contracting illnesses as a result of a suppressed immune system from being stressed.
That doesn't always happen. A stressed animal could still eat, breed, and not contract illnesses. I'm sure they don't like having involuntary muscle movements. You can't deny that.



I did read it.

I am not pretending nor lying. I tell everyone that all spiders spin. I also tell them that it's been my personal experience, working with them, that the majority of them are unaffected in their quality of life by this condition.

You don't own one, you've only observed them at shows. You have no hands on experience working with them that would lend you the legitimacy to determine that it's so bad.

What about the minority?

[Reakt20]

you said you were not trying to argue and have already contradicted that statement miserably. above and beyond that, the details are miniscule and irrelevant so im not going to quote you. it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread so quit referring to what im writing about in your response as if you want me to reply and just take it for what it is. that's all that needs to be said besides get a life.

[Skittles1101]

I wonder how long until this goes to QT room?

Do you (generally, not directed at anyone) know any people who have children with known family genetic problems? (ie. heart problems, diabetes, breast cancer?) I know heart disease and anxiety problems run in my family...my parents knew this too and here I am

IMO (I feel like I have to accentuate this is only my opinion) the spider wobble is much like a human genetic issue. My boyfriend is a diabetic, and I am well aware that if we have kids they could potentially be diabetic as well. My ex husband is ADD to the max, I knew this and now have a son with severe ADD. It happens, in our world and every other in the animal kingdom. Bull dogs are known to have severe hip and leg problems, yet thousands are sold each year and bred. Himalayan cats have sinus problems. This argument over whether the spider wobble is good or bad is pointless.

[Genetics Breeder]

you said you were not trying to argue and have already contradicted that statement miserably.
It takes 2 to argue.
above and beyond that, the details are miniscule and irrelevant so im not going to quote you.
lol you could also write there is NOTHING to quote
it has nothing to do with the topic of this thread so quit referring to what im writing about in your response as if you want me to reply and just take it for what it is.
Yes, I want you to reply with a list of all the 'minuscule and irrelevant details.'
that's all that needs to be said besides get a life.
Which makes you sound so much smarter!

[Genetics Breeder]

I wonder how long until this goes to QT room?

Do you (generally, not directed at anyone) know any people who have children with known family genetic problems? (ie. heart problems, diabetes, breast cancer?) I know heart disease and anxiety problems run in my family...my parents knew this too and here I am

IMO (I feel like I have to accentuate this is only my opinion) the spider wobble is much like a human genetic issue. My boyfriend is a diabetic, and I am well aware that if we have kids they could potentially be diabetic as well. My ex husband is ADD to the max, I knew this and now have a son with severe ADD. It happens, in our world and every other in the animal kingdom. Bull dogs are known to have severe hip and leg problems, yet thousands are sold each year and bred. Himalayan cats have sinus problems. This argument over whether the spider wobble is good or bad is pointless.

I was meaning that people lie about the problems with spiders, I think the bad part is when people lie about there being some extreme problems. There ARE a minority of spiders that have to be force fed or almost constantly wobble.

[rabernet]

I don't dislike the movement.
In the other thread, they said that their spider was already having problems. Quote:
Anyway, at the last Tucson Reptile Show we purchased 2 hatchling females from a local breeder we know. One, a spider would not eat anything for us and always seemed very skittish and easily stressed (for a ball even). We tried just about everything you can try to get a finicky ball to take a meal. Finally the breeder offered to take her back and get her eating.

If an animal can't control their movements, how happy can they be? It's obvious that when they strike and miss, they aren't trying to miss.

That's a finicky ball python, which can happen with any mutation. How is the snake's finickiness even related to the spider wobble? I've got a clutch of pastels that took their own sweet time to start eating. Some breeders at shows will sell freshly hatched ball pythons before they've even had their first meal. I do not agree with this practice and will not allow an animal to leave my collection until they've had three consecutive meals with me, and I'm confident that they are a strong feeder.

Your example is about a finicky snake. Just because it happens to be a spider doesn't mean squat for your argument.

[rabernet]

What about the minority?

Every single mutation can have a problem in the clutch. It's not exclusive to spiders. What about the minority of normals that have a problem? What about the minority of lessers that have a problem?

Why do you seem so invested in the focusing just on the spider?

[rabernet]

I was meaning that people lie about the problems with spiders, I think the bad part is when people lie about there being some extreme problems. There ARE a minority of spiders that have to be force fed or almost constantly wobble.

I will concede that. And as a breeder, there is a minority of any mutation that is not suitable to be sold. The ethical breeder will not sell an animal that has problems. The problem lies with the breeder, not the snake.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

One thing we will all agree on is that spiders are NOT for everyone, however regardless of the mutation one thing that bothers me are people that cannot help themselves but to judge and look down on those that chose to work with a certain mutation.

I think quality of life is an animal living happily. The people that posted above thought it meant that it was staying alive (eating, breeding, and growing)

What is living happily? Beside eating, growing and breeding what do snakes with a good quality of life do that spiders don't? (Those are snakes they eat they grow they breed should you chose to breed them I am not aware of them doing anything more than that )

More seriously how do YOU judge the quality of life of spiders and their combos, is that based on YOUR hand on experience working with spiders..........oh wait a minute that can't be since you don't want to work with them.

I can tell you I have a few spiders and spider combos and I am failing to see how their quality of life is any different than the snake in the next tub (the oldest spider has been with me for 5 years now) they don't have a horrible quality of life as you make it sound they don't just survive they THRIVE like any other snake in my collection.

So like I said they're not for everyone and they are not the only mutation that is not for everyone, the difference is that most people here understand without judging.

And talking about this