Is there a Breeder Association? Do you guys think regulation is necessary?

[equinebeing]

I feel like there is an informal breeder association, in that a lot of the big time and small time breeders are highly active on forums and on youtube. For example, I will trust someone with my money that I've seen posting a lot on message boards etc because as we all know word of mouth is a powerful thing. There are of course the occasional exceptions to EVERY rule.

So this really got me thinking. I know that like Thoroughbred Horses have the Jockey Club which regulates things like there is no artificial insemination allowed etc. Of course backyard breeders can end up doing whatever the heck they want but everyone knows that dealing through vendors that are associated with the Jockey Club you get certain securities that are not available elsewhere. Of course there are restrictions as well. But what does belonging to this sort of club allow?

Firstly it protects the breeders in that prices for their animals aren't going to bottom out at the worst possible times. I feel like this has been a hot issue around here a lot. Think about it, an association of the biggest breeders with those of you who have a smaller collection that are really focusing on quality not quantity. If you are producing an Albino that you feel is worth 800-1200 how are you supposed to compete with someone who freaks out and sells their hatchlings at $350? Of course everyone has the right to say that they would rather hold back their animals for a few years and get what they are truly worth but can a lot of those people who are just getting into breeding and made huge investments and need to pay the electric bill really just sit on these animals? Ideally everyone should be able to sit on what they don't want to sell but the reality of the current economic climate is that most of us don't have that luxury. There needs to be some sort of protection on both sides, a unity between all quality breeders and buyers.

Also, I think that independently as breeders, you guys have done such a great job at regulating what kind of genetic disorders and diseases you protect your snakes from. There is of course many problems out there, but those problems could be a lot worse were it not for the care that a lot of people take in protecting their investment. But the story of joe schmoe buying from someone that is supposed to be reputable and then having their snake die weeks later is not as rare as I'd like it to be.

I honestly have not heard about a ball python breeders association at all, so that makes me hope that there isn't one, because if there is in fact one I would really hope that it'd be a lot more relevant than it is. I feel like to get one going would probably take about 5 years for it to actually start making a dent in things, but think about where ball python breeding was five years ago. Think about how some things have deteriorated and how somethings have gotten better, and where we would be now had one been started back then.

Please keep in mind I have yet to own my first ball python, and am a pre-law student so I may just be full of a lot of crap.

Thanks for reading

[WebbyD]

Sounds like you are suggesting a BBB for breeders.

[mainbutter]

Firstly it protects the breeders in that prices for their animals aren't going to bottom out at the worst possible times...If you are producing an Albino that you feel is worth 800-1200 how are you supposed to compete with someone who freaks out and sells their hatchlings at $350?...There needs to be some sort of protection on both sides

Every time someone suggests something like this, the suggestions are usually tantamount to price fixing.

If someone is going to sell a few hatchlings for $350, that IS their value.. as value is a two sided affair between a seller and a buyer.

Another fact about the ball python 'market' is that, unlike horse racing, it is DEPENDENT upon basement breeders. Basement breeders are the bread and butter of 'professional' snake breeders who rely on reptile sales for their livelihood.

[Bruce Whitehead]

I get it, but it will never happen.

Firstly who decides the standards? Just seems like an oligarchy, or ten, in the making.

Secondly, it would get messy with all the haters running in circles bumping into each other yelling "that person on the board did something i did not like ten years ago!" till they eventaully collide and knock themselves out.

Thirdly, anecdotally at least, I do think that snake breeding tends to have a disproportionate amount of conservatives in it (not saying this is bad), but in a true liberalist Adam Smith-esque framework that means less involvement from outside organizational bodies is good, increased legislation is bad. (It tramples on the rights of the individual).

But I do like a decidedly Durkheim approach to the hobby. Bureaucracies are the great equalizers, but unfortunately are also limited (and corrupted) by their mandates.

And lastly, as the bumper sticker on my car used to read "never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups."

Bruce

PS: to the OP, yours was a really good post, well thought out and very well presented.

[stevepoppers]

I've been thinking about something like this during my inquiries about the BP price dynamics. If most breeders agreed to what a certain animal was worth, and STUCK to that, then that would be what the animal is worth. Other industries do it all the time. It's just a form of self-protection. And if all it would require is some kind of certification/membership card, then even basement breeders could get involved. Sure, customers set the price by buying the cheapest they can find, but if they can't find any cheaper, then they'll have to buy it for what they can find it for. With some internal regulation, that would be mostly flat rate, much closer to the animals value from the breeder/enthusiast/professional's point of view. Yes, it IS price fixing, but couldn't it be better for the industry?

Philosophy major.

[Shadera]

The problem is getting breeders to stick with those prices. Not everyone can afford to sit on snakes until all the other cheaper ones have sold. At least, I'm guessing that's why even the big guys keep creeping lower.

If you're breeding for quality (which we all should be), your stuff will fetch the higher prices eventually.

It's a good idea in theory, but sadly not really executable.

[stevepoppers]

What if a group of people, regardless of size, decided to just hold some agreed upon prices, and did so?

[equinebeing]

Another fact about the ball python 'market' is that, unlike horse racing, it is DEPENDENT upon basement breeders. Basement breeders are the bread and butter of 'professional' snake breeders who rely on reptile sales for their livelihood.

I'm just wondering what you mean by "basement breeders." I am honestly ignorant to the term and am not trying to be sarcastic here haha. If you mean smaller breeders (with as low as 2-3 snakes) who do this as a hobby then I don't know why they should not be part of a coalition of other breeders. I feel like if you've spent years saving up or selectively breeding to have four really nice snakes then you are just as important as the guy who produces 10,000 snakes a year and deserve a seat at the table as well. If by "basement breeders" you mean people who breed for the quick $ no matter what the danger to the gene pool, then I feel like that is something that should be rectified. Why should an industry be dependent on shady practices?

Bruce- Thanks for the compliment . I understand the uneasiness for bringing a bureaucracy into the hobby. I don't mean to suggest either that unless people are part of an organization that they cannot breed reptiles. All I am saying is that I see an effectiveness in having an organization that people can trust, because as soon as a non-profit organization loses the trust of the people then it ceases to be relevant.

I feel like like the statement that it would not work because it would be a large group of stupid people is really selling the people of this and your community short. Like i said I am new to the reptile community and I am sure there are 50+ power-hungry famous boneheads out there with a bad reputation that would love to sit on a board and draw a line that everyone has to follow. But what about everyone else? What about all of those people that rallied to help someone when a loved one of theirs passed away? Or the posters who don't mind explaining for the 80th time that week what the difference between a thermometer and a thermostat is for the new herpers?

I am certainly not talking about a body that will choke the liberties of breeders. I read something the other day on this forum. A few people were discussing breeders and someone said that they would all have to stick together to survive. I don't know, but that statement rang true for me and maybe it's because I have yet to experience the real world fully but I feel like A LOT of people are inherently good and having a way to glue those that want to be glued would be beneficial.

It's a good idea in theory, but sadly not really executable.

I don't know why it should not be executable. Honestly everything starts somewhere you know? I'm talking about offering the customers a choice between buying from someone that has no references to buying from someone that belongs to an association that is reputable. Do I expect everyone to jump on board tomorrow? No way, but like all good things an association can gain credibility in time. I know a lot of people that will only buy a dog with "papers" because they feel more secure in dropping 1200$ for X breed registered at AKC rather than 800$ with the guy at the flea market that will not be there next week.

Also, another issue is having a body that can protect the rights that reptile breeders should have. I feel like there is a certain stigma that comes with owning a snake (one that I have been suffering in trying to acquire one, with my family) and this stigma certainly plays out when it comes to what laws and regulations are being passed within our country. The biggest problem we have is that there are people who are ignorant about the issues and then they go vote. I can't really blame the voters for their ignorance if there isn't some big force out there trying to educate people in a way that is short of harassment. There was a time when I was pretty sure (living in SoCal) that pitbulls were not going to be allowed on this earth anymore. I remember the almost instant reaction of people when you mentioned that you owned a pitbull. It took a while for people to understand that "bad dogs aren't born they are made" to quote Corky Romano, and while that stigma isn't completely gone yet, through the calculated efforts of many communities the Pitbull PR has been affected positively.

I honestly don't think that telling everyone to stick to a price would really work, I mean it's a good theory, and all but if you need to pay the rent then you are going to sell the snake at a cut and count your losses. I do however think that being an organization would make snakes more readily available to those who want them.

I mean the Petco near me sells their normals at 79.99 no joke and lets be honest there are SOME good Petco's out there with employees who really know what they are doing, but I went by mine today and there were five snakes in that tank two of which I don't think were BPs... but people go to Petco because it's there, and it's available, and it's oh so easy. There will always be people that are going to impulse buy of course, but I think there are a lot of people who wake up one morning and decide they want a snake and do their research if only for a week, and it would be nice to offer them a list of organized breeders that can be trusted. I will even admit, it was getting really hard for me to wait around for a reptile show so that I could find a breeder and not have to pay the extra 55$ for shipping so I even considered buying from a big chain petstore until I became more educated on the issue.

Today a letterhead tomorrow ...I can't think of anything more gratifying than a letter head, sorry.


Stephanie

[stevepoppers]

I like this! Heck, forget prices! A group that would offer a trustable reputation and even help protect it's members sounds great! I don't see why it's not executable, because all it takes is one person to say, "Here's a group. Wann join?"

[mdjudson]

Or we could just let the free market work? Just a thought.