Animal Planet Investigates PETLAND

[wolfy-hound]

Sorry, I've personally seen no-kill shelters I wouldn't give a dead hamster to. They warehouse animals in substandard facilities in packs. Weaker dogs were killed when the pack turned on them. Dogs were fed by throwing in large amounts of food in one or two places, so that the strong ate, and the weak got weaker.
I've also seen a place that bred dogs commercially(mostly dachunds) and they had well over 100 dogs. The kennels were well made, the dogs were clean and healthy. The puppies were fat healthy animals that would make good pets for people.

But by most people's standards, they would STILL be labeled a puppy mill. Never mind that the dogs are healthy. Instead of focusing on labeling breeders, why don't you focus on enforcing laws that already exist for humane care for the dogs? I.E. appropriate shelter, vet care, food and water.

I've seen pet stores that take kittens in, then sell them. I don't mind it, as long as the kittens are vetted and healthy. If you want a kitten for free in front of the supermarket, go get it.. then spend the $200 at the vet for all the stuff a kitten needs and hope that it's not sick already. Get a well vetted kitten from a reputable sho, shelter, or pound.. and you usually pay $60 and you get a kitten already checked by a vet. The shop that sells the kittens for $60 that has vetted the kittens doesn't make a ton on the kitten, anymore than they make a ton on the puppies they sell. They make their money on the accessories. The puppies and kittens draw in customers.

IF the shop is taking proper care of the animals, there should be no onus on them for selling puppies and kittens. They should also be making certain that their suppliers are treating their dogs, cats and the puppies and kittens properly as well, i.e. clean, fed, watered, sheltered.

Too many times people just automatically label ALL breeders as bad, either they are "backyard-breeders" or "puppy mills". Pick one, the only difference is number of animals. No one waits to see if they are caring for the animals properly, it's still a "bad thing" just because they breed.

HSUS only wants to outlaw all animal ownership INCLUDING owning dogs or cats as pets. They've already stated as such in some of their literature, and that's their goal. They'll just do it in a sneaky way so it'll get past all the blind doners who think "Ooo, a picture of a puppy, they must be good!" and hand over their money, and then blindly believe whatever they're told, because the HSUS says "humane" in it.. they must be right.

[catawhat75]

I hope that for once, AP does a good job on this show. The world really needs it's eyes opened up to places such as Petland and other stores that buy from the mills. After many years of protesting against our local Petland, they finally closed (maybe because they finally sold to many puppies who died shortly after being sold). And yes, I know people who have had that happen, not just hearsay.
Too easy to get on my soapbox about puppy mills and backyard breeders so I will now step away from this thread...

[Shyshoos]

Sorry, I've personally seen no-kill shelters I wouldn't give a dead hamster to. They warehouse animals in substandard facilities in packs. Weaker dogs were killed when the pack turned on them. Dogs were fed by throwing in large amounts of food in one or two places, so that the strong ate, and the weak got weaker.
I've also seen a place that bred dogs commercially(mostly dachunds) and they had well over 100 dogs. The kennels were well made, the dogs were clean and healthy. The puppies were fat healthy animals that would make good pets for people.

This is a description of a good breeder, not a puppy mill. (And the description of a severely illegal "shelter". Are you sure it wasn't a pound? I've seen pounds like that--one dog had his tooth hanging from his gums...) I was describing a puppy mill, and that's what you'll see on the Petland investigation. I have no problem with reputable breeders, as you described, no matter how many animals they have, as long as each and every one of them is loved and well cared for.

But by most people's standards, they would STILL be labeled a puppy mill. Never mind that the dogs are healthy. Instead of focusing on labeling breeders, why don't you focus on enforcing laws that already exist for humane care for the dogs? I.E. appropriate shelter, vet care, food and water.

It's sadly true.

The puppies and kittens draw in customers.

IF the shop is taking proper care of the animals, there should be no onus on them for selling puppies and kittens. They should also be making certain that their suppliers are treating their dogs, cats and the puppies and kittens properly as well, i.e. clean, fed, watered, sheltered.

I still condone pet stores that supply breeder's puppies. There are humane society's and shelters that have thousands upon thousands of animals brought in every single year and if a pet store chooses a breeder's puppies over helping the homeless ones, then I just see a money-greedy company that isn't doing any good for the lives of dogs. Dog breeders = breed dogs and sell them. Pet stores = "we care for animals" =/= buy from breeders instead of taking homeless ones off of the shelter's and humane society's. I love pure bred dogs, and I'm not saying they shouldn't exist, and I'm NOT saying it's wrong to choose to buy a pure bred over a humane society or shelter puppy (it's a nice act though!). What I'm saying is dog breeder's should do the pure bred selling while pet stores who want to sell puppies should help out their local shelters. If the pet store doesn't have a local shelter, if it knows who it's buying it's puppies from and it's not a dumpy puppy farm, then okay; have at.

We have a small local pet store right down the street, and it's the epitome of animal love. They have a list that you can put your name on, and how many kittens you have, and as they sell what they currently have in the store, you can bring in the unexpected litter. They also do this for puppies. They don't over-price them--they sell them for about $20--and because of that they aren't neutered or spayed. They are given their first round of shots though and very, very well taken care of.

HSUS only wants to outlaw all animal ownership INCLUDING owning dogs or cats as pets. They've already stated as such in some of their literature, and that's their goal. They'll just do it in a sneaky way so it'll get past all the blind doners who think "Ooo, a picture of a puppy, they must be good!" and hand over their money, and then blindly believe whatever they're told, because the HSUS says "humane" in it.. they must be right.

And just like when we see an adorable puppy in a pet store and do no research, we may be buying from a puppy mill. But it's true, people don't do a lot of thinking when there's a pretty puppy or kitten staring them in the face.

[wolfy-hound]

Sorry. Pet store is a business.. not a shelter. They are entirely entitled to sell pets, including purebreds if they like.
Why not say the shelters should do their job of finding homes for all their animals.. and the pet stores can sell the purebred pups? Why do you automatically think "pounds" are all bad? The pound up the road from me has been pretty darned good at rehoming animals and keeping everything clean.

I'm not saying bad places don't exist. I'm saying stop relying on those labels to say "wrong" and "right".

It's not the pet stores fault that people buy/adopt pups or dogs and then give them up to shelters. It's not the breeder's fault that someone buys a dog then decides later they want a new one and they "dump" it into a local shelter. No matter how much you try to research the new owner, sometimes they fool you, or sometimes they plain change their mind, or the economy makes them need to give up their pet.

It's akin to saying that all big breeders of snakes are evil mills and they should only sell direct to buyers and never supply pet stores with well-bred snakes. There's rescues with thousands of snakes needing homes.

People who WANT a dog, snake, cat, kitten, etc can CHOOSE to adopt from a rescuer, pay for one from a shelter or pound, or buy from a breeder, or buy from a pet store. Those people are then responsible for their pet. They are supposed to care for it. I'm all for encouraging people to adopt homeless pets from the shelter, but I won't tell someone they are wrong for wanting to buy a purebred puppy. I WILL encourage them to make sure of where that puppy is from, whether it's checking out the breeder or checking to see where the store gets puppies from.

One tactic I see locally is that large breeders 'farm' out the puppies to people so that it appears that the person 'selling' the pups only breeds a couple litters. They send pups to the flea markets with a person.. again, so it looks like it's just a person with a couple dogs. That encourages folks to buy pups, and they will never know that the pups came from a large commercial operation, sometimes with very inhumane conditions.

The way to stop inhumane treatment of animals is use the existing laws to punish people who don't give humane care to their dogs. Don't worry about how many dogs, or whether they sell the dogs, or "adopt" the dogs, or keep them forever as a no-kill shelter. Worry instead about whether the dogs are being given proper shelter, food, water and vet care.

Labels like "pound", "shelter", "no-kill", "petstore", or "puppy mill" don't tell you whether the animals are cared for properly or not.

[catawhat75]

Entitled to sell pets, right and wrong... How about morality and ethics? Not that those two things matter much anymore.
Wolfy, would you support a mass BP breeder who kept them in horrendous conditions and ONLY cared about selling the babies and making money. I truly thought that with you working in a pet related field would be a bit more educated when it came to how stores like Petland operate.
Yes, it would be great if people were responsible enough to research before they buy that cute puppy in the window. But that's what those stores rely upon, the IMPULSE buy.

Nothing wrong at all with purebred animals, nothing wrong with responsible breeders- lots wrong with mass/mill breeders.

[wolfy-hound]

If you read what I wrote.. I said anyone who is neglecting the animals should be charged with neglect.. but I believe it's whether it's a small breeder or a large breeder.

If the big breeder of snakes is neglecting the snakes and keeping them inhumanely, I'm against it.

If any supplier of puppies(large or small) is not meeting the proper requirements for the dogs, they should be prosecuted. I'm against labeling places as "good" or "bad" strictly on that whole label of "large scale breeder" or "pound" or "no-kill" or "backyard breeder".

The repeated comments that "are you sure it wasn't a pound?" is a perfect example. All pounds are not bad, all large scale breeders are not bad, all small scale breeders are not bad. Trying to say that someone is abusing animals just because they fit a label is wrong.

Am I a python mill because I have 35 pythons? Am I bad because I sell the babies instead of adopting them out for free or nearly free? But pet stores are bad becuase they sell puppies, rather than adopting out puppies.

I have no doubt that some Petlands bought puppies out of horrible places for resale. I also know that not ALL Petlands bought puppies from horrible places, not all corporate pet stores buy from horrible places, and not all large scale breeders are horrible places.

I do happen to know how petstores operate. I also see a lot of labeling. People are quick to jump on the bandwagon of "outlaw puppy mills" but they don't think about the definitions of "puppy mill". Why should anyone NEED a legal label of "puppy mill" when they have laws regarding the care of dogs? Instead of passing a new law without properly defining what you're outlawing, why not ENFORCE the existing laws that state you MUST provide proper housing, food, water and vet care for the dogs you own?

[PurplePython]

Petland is pathetic in my area. All of the reptiles are treated like trash and the dogs are in 4 x 4 foot cages like they are items and not animals.

[Shyshoos]

If any supplier of puppies(large or small) is not meeting the proper requirements for the dogs, they should be prosecuted. I'm against labeling places as "good" or "bad" strictly on that whole label of "large scale breeder" or "pound" or "no-kill" or "backyard breeder".

The repeated comments that "are you sure it wasn't a pound?" is a perfect example. All pounds are not bad, all large scale breeders are not bad, all small scale breeders are not bad. Trying to say that someone is abusing animals just because they fit a label is wrong.

Am I a python mill because I have 35 pythons? Am I bad because I sell the babies instead of adopting them out for free or nearly free? But pet stores are bad becuase they sell puppies, rather than adopting out puppies.

Okay, I CLEARLY described what best fits a "puppy mill" facility. Pretty much a down right filthy and unfit "living" environment. As much as anyone hates a label, it makes it very easy for people to have a stand on things. To say "I am against people who farm puppies in dirty homes and give them hardly any attention and veterinarian care" can easily be translated into "puppy mill".

As much as you hate a label being put on things, they will always exist because there will always be some terrible person who will breed animals in terrible conditions. So, society will continue to label these places as "puppy mills" because it's the most fitting title of the definition. Sadly some breeders are scrutinized for having a lot of animals who ARE well taken care of, and they are just idiots, so they should be dismissed.

Now a breeder who may house 35 dogs, snakes, cats, whatever, and is rightfully taking care of them all would be called a breeder. A reputable, good breeder.

And not all pounds are bad, just like I've said not all humane society offer what other humane society can. But it's common that pounds are not highly funded. They are generally where lost animals are taken and their isn't a lot of profit for them. In general, pounds are not what a shelter or humane society is. That's how they get those labels. Is a pound a bad place? No, not all of them are. But like I've said, I've lived all over the united states, and I've seen a lot of pet stores, shelters, pounds, and pounds are, from my experience, the least funded and thus I merely asked if it was a pound. I didn't slander the statement, I just asked.

[Shyshoos]

Petland is pathetic in my area. All of the reptiles are treated like trash and the dogs are in 4 x 4 foot cages like they are items and not animals.

Hopefully they don't sit for too long in that window. I wouldn't think a cute puppy would. And hopefully they're coming from a good breeder.

[4theSNAKElady]

Just goes to show you, not all chains are bad, not all small independants are good. Not all large scale breeders are "puppy mills" and not all small breeders care for their dogs. It's better to prosecute those that are breaking laws and abusing the animals, rather than making labels of "puppy mill" or "stock breeder" and accusing ALL of them of being abusive neglectful evil people.

There used to be tons of breeders that owned large scale places. HAving a 100 dachunds or 200 german shepards wasn't unheard of. Kept in proper space, cleaned and fed and watered... there's nothing wrong with a place that keeps a lot of animals. If someone has ONE dog chained in the backyard starving, hit THEM. If they have 100 dogs all clean and well cared for, leave them alone.

Labeling people with terms like "puppy mill" is ridiculous. What definition is puppy mill referring to? A place that makes money by breeding dogs? Or a place that neglects dogs? Any place with over XX dogs? A lot of people want to say things like "Oh, a puppy mill is a place where they breed dogs for profit without caring for the dogs!" but then you'll see places labeled a puppy mill because they breed dogs as a business, whether or not they care for the dogs properly... while "no kill" shelters are touted as wonderful places, even if they are full of dogs that should be humanely euthanized so they won't be suffering from chronic painful ailments or locked into a kennel for years due to un-resolvable behavioral problems.

Similiar to people who shout "It's the Deed, not the Breed" about not blaming all pit bulls for the actions of a few, don't try to villify all dog breeders just because they breed dogs.

BEST thing I've heard yet. Wolfy! (for some reason, the system wouldn't let me give you a rep point for this )