comfort level in buying Het's?

As I have had my first locks of the year as of late the question came to my mind on how to make possible buyers comfortable in trusting my offspring are true hets. Even if I make written / signed proof coming from a personal breeder and not a big box breeder who would really find any comfort in that? I have been taking pictures of all the locks with my male albino and the hets and spider females he has been with so far this year but is that enough to make others feel comfortable?
just wondering what everyone else thinks and if you all had anything that you look for when buy ing hets, such as pictures or paperwork.

What makes most people comfortable is reputation as a skilled and trustworthy breeder.:gj: If I can trust you with other things and i know that you know what you are doing trust is established, so when you say i have a 100% het Albino I believe you because I trust you.:gj:

I agree with tonkatoyman, its all about reputation. Once you get a customer base that trusts you selling hets should be no problem.

its going to depend on the person. I mean some people won't trust hets even from BHB or NERD, some people are too trusting and you could sell a het *insert make believe morph here*

I think taking pictures of the locks, marking the eggs, taking pictures of snakes hatching out of the eggs that are marked, clutch pictures bout all you can do. after that its just going to depend on the person interested in the hets. you have no control over it as a seller.

Yeah I understand the skilled and trustworthy but how does one go about building a good reputation when the yare just starting out? I have many that I deal with that I trust but when a het will take approximatley 2 years to be proven how does one really feel comfortable buying when first offspring cannot be proven immediatley? Does anyone truly feel a trusting bond with a personal breeder or are you just hoping it pans out? Obviously albino hets aren't that big of a hit to some but when I am breeding my spider with my albino and the hets come out the market will still be pretty high in price to just dish out money in hopes that they can me.
I have always breed different reptiles but have always sold to local pet stores at wholesale prices. I am not sure that alot of the little mom and pop pet stores will take or even be able to sell " Hets " at the market price. I am not looking to get rich just get some other high end morphs and such and build my collection.

One way is through networking, like spending time here. People get to know you and the beginning of trust is established. But mostly it takes time and dealing with people honestly.

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

its going to depend on the person. I mean some people won't trust hets even from BHB or NERD, some people are too trusting and you could sell a het *insert make believe morph here*

I think taking pictures of the locks, marking the eggs, taking pictures of snakes hatching out of the eggs that are marked, clutch pictures bout all you can do. after that its just going to depend on the person interested in the hets. you have no control over it as a seller.

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Thanks Ohh. I was going to take pics of the whole process just for me but didn't think of putting the pics with the proof.

A good start is pictures pictures pictures. Document every step of the way and include that documentation in the paperwork you give with the hets. Another thing you should start doing now is become as involved as you can in the herping community. Get to know folks...let them get to know you. And be a man of your word. If folks see you lying about little things, then you may destroy the tenuous bridge of trust you're trying to build.

I've never sold a single snake...but if a time comes that I have hets to sell in my first clutches....I'm pretty confident that I can find buyers for them because lots of people know me and trust me to both be a person of my word and to be able to run a business properly. At least....I do hope that's what most folks see. :P (I'd also take tons of pictures every step of the way and document everything! ;) )

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Originally Posted by tonkatoyman

One way is through networking, like spending time here. People get to know you and the beginning of trust is established. But mostly it takes time and dealing with people honestly.

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Thanks Tonka. I have been around the site for awhile but never really signed in because I always bred Burms until my son was born. Thats when the wife said no more monsters in the house.

Pictures can help build trust for sure, but I can tell you that pictures do absolutely no good if I do not trust you to start with, If I do not know you they will help build trust though. I hope this is clear. But let me say if I think you are dishonest to start with i will not even believe pictures. But if I am just getting to know you pictures will help. Maybe that explains it better.:taz:

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Originally Posted by tonkatoyman

Pictures can help build trust for sure, but I can tell you that pictures do absolutely no good if I do not trust you to start with, If I do not know you they will help build trust though. I hope this is clear. But let me say if I think you are dishonest to start with i will not even believe pictures. But if I am just getting to know you pictures will help. Maybe that explains it better.:taz:

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Perfectly clear. I know exactly what it means to deal with trustworthy people.

I Completely agree with the whole trust building thing... as i am just starting out on this exciting hobby I have made several purchases and am quickly learning how to find trusty worthy sellers or breeders. I think youll build a rep just by being a good trustworthy seller but I also agree pictures are worthwhile and definitely help Also helps with record keeping

With the bullies we took pictures of the lock, and videoed the birth.
I have been thinking of this for when I am ready too breed too. With snakes it is unlikely that you will be able to record the egg laying and it seems all to easy to swap eggs around so honesty is what I see best. Though there seems to be a huge open door for people to mislead you on what you are really buying. That is also why I am trying to find breeders in my area.
Also, I have seen mention of "paper work" on snakes, I know this sounds stupid but is it like my UKC or ADBA? Or is it just a written from the seller as x and y made z so z should be $$$?

I think I will photo all I can and then when I sell, print a copy of both parents to go with baby "z"'s feed, and shed card.:gj:

Keep in mind I am new too so after you get done laughing please be kind;)

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

... I know this sounds stupid but is it like my UKC or ADBA? Or is it just a written from the seller as x and y made z so z should be $$$?

...

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Not a stupid question at all. There is no official registration like kennel clubs. The paper work is simply a written guarantee (on paper or digital) from the breeder that the animal is het for whatever. It's obviously only as good as the breeder's integrity. It can take years to prove out a het and by then the "breeder" may be long gone or simply not interested in making anything right.

Still...every little bit helps, and a breeder willing to put in the effort to create professional looking papers that detail the snake's genetic background and include pictures to back it up...is likely a breeder that cares about their customer and their business rep.

So, then it would be better as a possible het unless you are going to hold back and prove it.
This is making my head hurt:stupidme:
morph x morph = morph and hets
morph x normal = morph and het and normal
right?
I so wanna ask how you tell a het from a normal but I know that is only with a couple breeds.:snake:

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

So, then it would be better as a possible het unless you are going to hold back and prove it.
This is making my head hurt:stupidme:
morph x morph = morph and hets
morph x normal = morph and het and normal
right?
I so wanna ask how you tell a het from a normal but I know that is only with a couple breeds.:snake:

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Visible recessive Morph x Visible recessive Morph = all Visible morph
Visible recessive Morph x normal = all het
Visible recessive Morph x Het = 50% morph and 50% het
Het x Het = 25% morph, 50% het, 25% Normal / all normals considered 66% Het
Het x Normal = 50% het, 50% normal / all normals considered 50% Het
(I believe this is how I understand it, if I am wrong anyone please correct )
Co-Doms and Doms will produce visible morphs when bred to normals.

I am not sure that anyone truly believes the "so called" markers on hets. But the only het that I know of that people can say they see markers are het pied with the belly showing the signs of the marker.

Hope that helps and doesn't confuse anymore. It is a very deep subject when you start going into the genetics and especially with the CO-Dom and Dom morphs getting mixed with recesssives. But all in all just have fun with it.

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Originally Posted by JD'S Exotics

(I believe this is how I understand it, if I am wrong anyone please correct )

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Spot on. :gj:

It is, indeed, a bit of a learning curve. And even when you understand the basics of how the genetics work (as listed above) you still have to learn which morph fits into which genetic category (recessive, dom, co-dom) and some morphs are still mysteries. The great thing is that it's all super fun stuff to learn! :D

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Originally Posted by JLC

some morphs are still mysteries

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So if Dozzer and Lynn make something that has not been seen, we are all screwed??:D:DLOL

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Originally Posted by PitOnTheProwl

So if Dozzer and Lynn make something that has not been seen, we are all screwed??:D:DLOL

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Or........ Gonna be rolling in the money!

buying hets is taking someones word. that's why they are hard to sell if you're not well knowned. I'm breeding my clown male and I have 2 female mojaves, the one has never been breed and the other breed last year with locks but no eggs. I can't breed my clown to the one that I breed last year and be 100%. she could be holding from those breedings. this is where some breeders get into trouble thinking it has to be 100% het cause the only breeding was to a clown. wrong

ive heard b4 with dogs if a mut got my pure female there is always a chance of her throwin a mut even if i only have purse after that mut..is there anything like that in snakes where somethin may be left over from a previous lock? (i have done no research on the dog thing just what a breeder frient told me but idk so plz dont laugh if i was told a buch of bull...lol)

justin

Honestly, keep good records and be aware of things. Like don says above, there are weird things that can happen to produce problems. You can usually be sure that the current male is the father, but females CAN retain sperm from previous matings. Usually a hot summer makes that point pretty moot for wild bps, but in out very controlled climates SOMETIMES you can't be 100% sure! And be sure you know what you may have: 50, 66 or 100% hets can make a big difference! If you don't know how the genes work STUDY it! Het to het breedings produce 66% possible hets! Some sellers don't know this and it looks bad to have to change 100% het to 50 or 66% het! Then people don't know if they can trust you because you don't even know what you have. XD it's sad but happens. Also, possible hets usually don't sell for any more than normals, so be aware that throwing a big price on them is not the best idea. Sell them at normal prices and if the buyer ends up proving them out, they will be super happy! And if it turns out to be a non-het or doesn't produce the first breeding, they will not feel like you overcharged them for a normal!

Just know what you are selling and try to be reasonable. You may not sell things for the prices big names or old timer breeders can command. Newbies often have to sell things a little less so that you can get reputation and good feedback. I recommend leaving feedback for buyers on the BOI if you had a good experience, and ask them to do the same for you! I ALWAYS check out a seller on the BOI before i buy nowadays!

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Originally Posted by floridayank22

ive heard b4 with dogs if a mut got my pure female there is always a chance of her throwin a mut even if i only have purse after that mut..is there anything like that in snakes where somethin may be left over from a previous lock? (i have done no research on the dog thing just what a breeder frient told me but idk so plz dont laugh if i was told a buch of bull...lol)

justin

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Female dogs and cats CAN have mixed sire litters. The breeding has to be the same heat cycle, but females in heat will breed with many males if given the option. The sperm competition makes for better odds for her offspring to be healthy and genetically diverse. So yes. If someone's prize, purebred female (can we use the B-word if we are talking dogs?) escapes for only one day, she might have some mutts in the litter if she mates with any other dogs during that time. I've heard of dogs having 11 puppies at once and the person rescuing the mom thinks that there were at least 3-4 fathers. Most (possibly all, though my biology info is not that impeccable) mammals can not retain sperm in the same way that reptiles can. Usually a week or two is the longest it can be retained for, and it isn't really stored in quite the same way as with snakes. I have no idea about frogs/lizards or other herps, but I imagine most females of many species can have broods with multiple fathers. It is seen in birds as well.

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Originally Posted by darkbloodwyvern

Female dogs and cats CAN have mixed sire litters. The breeding has to be the same heat cycle, but females in heat will breed with many males if given the option. The sperm competition makes for better odds for her offspring to be healthy and genetically diverse. So yes. If someone's prize, purebred female (can we use the B-word if we are talking dogs?) escapes for only one day, she might have some mutts in the litter if she mates with any other dogs during that time. I've heard of dogs having 11 puppies at once and the person rescuing the mom thinks that there were at least 3-4 fathers. Most (possibly all, though my biology info is not that impeccable) mammals can not retain sperm in the same way that reptiles can. Usually a week or two is the longest it can be retained for, and it isn't really stored in quite the same way as with snakes. I have no idea about frogs/lizards or other herps, but I imagine most females of many species can have broods with multiple fathers. It is seen in birds as well.

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see thats where my question came from bc ive heard that bout dogs but wasent sure if herps could do that or not, here is the big problem...im new to the snake world (minus the ones caught in my yard) and not even a clue when it comes to breeding except i know they arent just playin tag under the sheets lol, so im tryin to ask in a way i dont make a fool of myself...but since u said they could retain sperm what is the chance of a surprise when ur breeding? and i know when u get morphs its from 2 different snakes and im way to lost right now to understand the hets but with all those factors in there is there a chance of gettin a lil of them all and gettin some cray mut as the result? or am i just over thinkin this like mostly everything else?

either way thx for the info
justin

You can't get genes from multiple fathers in the same snake, if that is what you are asking.

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Originally Posted by floridayank22

but since u said they could retain sperm what is the chance of a surprise when ur breeding? and i know when u get morphs its from 2 different snakes and im way to lost right now to understand the hets but with all those factors in there is there a chance of gettin a lil of them all and gettin some cray mut as the result? or am i just over thinkin this like mostly everything else?

either way thx for the info
justin

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As said above, every snake is only going to have one father and mother. Usually if you breed a female with one male each year, it is pretty likely that that male will be the sole sire of her clutch. There's plenty of stories about females throwing babies from last year's male, so it isn't unheard of. There's not way to absolutely certain unless you have raised a female yourself and only bred her to one male each season. BUT it sounds like a good few weeks of basking can kill off most retained sperm. Female bodies are pretty inhospitable to sperm, because the worse an environment is, the stronger something has to be to survive it! So it is actually to the females benefit that their bodies try to kill sperm and the longer time between matings, the more likely it is that any retained genes are going to be eliminated. I've heard of codoms popping out of recessive to recessive clutches (a het pied female was bred to say, a pastel one year and a non-pastel pied to the next but had a single pastel baby show up in a clutch of pieds) So it does happen and you can't always be perfectly sure. It's pretty unlikely though. Nowadays, hets for pied and albino are not as expensive so it's slightly less of a problem if there are mixed sire clutches. And even 100% GAURANTEED hets that come from a virgin female and visual recessive pairing don't always produce visuals in their first, second or even third clutch! Sometimes, fate or genes or whatever do not want to cooperate!! So hets are pretty much a gamble no matter what. They are MORE sure of a bet if they come from a perfect breeding and a reliable breeder, but buyers cannot expect to instantly have a ____ (insert visual morph here) even if everything is for certain. I've heard of plenty pastel x pastel pairings produce NO super pastels, Het pied x het pied (or even a piebald!) that produced no pieds! Poop happens even if you take every precaution you can. HOWEVER, if you KNOW that you have bred a female to other males, you know there is a slight possibility the babies may not be perfectly mapped as far as genes go. What you do with that knowledge is up to you! You can sell the hets as 100% with the disclaimer that the female was bred to another male last season, or you can assume that it is very highly unlikely that you will have problems. It's your choice as a breeder and sometimes too much info is too much info! You can't control what is happening with the eggs as far as genes go. You can't say whether your female will produce 3 eggs one year or 5 plus a dud or boob egg. Breeding is a little messy and unpredictable and for the most part, being a good guy/gal and keeping good records and doing your best and finding what works for you AND your snakes is the best anyone can expect of you!

This sort of thing is generally why people do not trust hets or buy them. It may be why some breeders breed hets and possible hets ONLY to other possible hets or visuals of the morph they are het for. Then at least, if you have bred a PH clown female to a Het clown male that HAS sired clowns, next year you can try her with a spider het clown, or a pastel het clown... your odds are better than way of at least producing PH or hets!

It's not necessarily bad breeding to use two males to father a clutch in the same season, but it makes things way more complicated! If you are worried about being able to prove to people that your hets are indeed as trustworthy as possible, you need to decide on a strategy for breeding. All my females have never been bred before as I have owned them all their adult lives. So I can pretty much guarantee that at least, ONE of the males I select will be the father of the babies they produce. If I mix up the couples the next season, it's the same deal. I will have a list of possible fathers that will be siring my babies. Sometimes, this is the best anyone can do!

AND on top of this, there have been female snakes that have been captives for up to twenty-thirty years that suddenly lay eggs that hatch into healthy babies... I mean, WHAT THE HECK! In a few cases, the babies are clones of the mother!!! Reptiles are kind of crazy that way... So just do your best and it will probably be just fine. If you wish, you can guarantee a visual in three-four years but really, I don't think anyone can expect that of you. Even experienced people can mess up things occasionally and if you are nice enough to try to make up for it when a het doesn't produce, you can figure that out on a case by case basis. Would you give someone a discount on a visual if the het you sold them doesn't produce one in three years? You can always come up with a rough plan and wait for someone to complain. It's not an issue that comes up all that often as most hets produce OR people understand that even a 100% positive het may not throw a visual in it's breeding career. You can even make sure that people understand the genetics of hets by talking with them a little about it. 100% het does not = you will get an albino the first clutch. It means you might if the odds are in your favor. Usually most people are lucky enough to prove out a female het in four or five years, if not in her first breeding.

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Originally Posted by floridayank22

ive heard b4 with dogs if a mut got my pure female there is always a chance of her throwin a mut even if i only have purse after that mut..is there anything like that in snakes where somethin may be left over from a previous lock?

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Justin, also... this is why most breeders let dogs/birds/snakes/cats whatever breed as MANY times as possible during the female's heat/ovulation/whatever the species does to produce eggs. If a mutt breeds your female RIGHT at her peak, the whole litter may be mutts, no matter how many times you put her with the "right" purebred male. If the mutt happens to catch her at the beginning or end of her heat cycle, there may be only one or two or NO mutts if you are lucky! Usually the male that has the most time with a female at the peak of her cycle will father the majority if not all of the babies. This is why animals in groups are very protective of females who are in heat. Sometimes all they need is to mate her for one day, but if they stick around before an after, their chances are higher of being the sole father of the babies. Some snake breeders will see a couple hook up twelve times in a week! This makes for very good odds. In MOST animals, sperm will eventually die off the older it gets. If a female is rested for a season, she may have eggs anyways, but they seem to be smaller clutches or have more duds due to sperm viability. Your chances of getting retained sperm is lessened by letting this year's male spend as much time as is healthy for them both. Obviously don't exhaust a male just to be sure of your sire. It isn't worth his health! Plus, "fresher" sperm usually can overcome all but the most resilient retained sperm. It is possible that one or two babies may have been from last year's sire, but unless the new sire is infertile, most if not all could be his.

ok yall thx for the answers, just kinda curious about the possible goofy "mut" snakes that could pop out would b kinda cool

justin