I think my snake loves me

Well, that is true, but can't that be said of ANY emotion (including a human reacting to stimuli and feeling sorrow, love, happiness, etc)?

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I think alot of people try to compare reptiles to something else; mindless like insects/fish or compassionate like dogs/cats/etc. Here's my take on it:

I am very big on biology and feel that snakes will never feel anything that equates to human love/emotion but I do feel all snakes will feel an emotion one way or another.

I look to the Triune Brain model based on evolution. Basically this separates the brain into 3 parts, the R-complex, the Limbic System, and the Neocortex. As the brain got bigger over time in accordance with evolution and cephalization, the brain also received levels of complexity. Basically, fish have primitive forms of the R-complex, amphibians have a more complex structure than fish, reptiles have the entire R-complex, birds exhibit some of the limbic system, all mammals have the entire limbic system, and higher order mammals possess the neocortex.

The R-complex (from being named the Reptilian Complex) is the basis of the brain, the brainstem and cerebellum in our brains; which make up the brain in reptiles. In humans and reptiles alike, the R-complex is responsible for certain things like rage, fear, and the flight-or-fight responses. In humans, this is where "primitive" emotions develop, such as territorial defense, fear, and anger all take place.

Now the Limbic system gives way to mood, emotions and higher order memory. The R-complex had some basic memory functions but the Limbic system gives way to learning, (i.e. Mouse in a maze). These are where emotions like sadness, love, happiness, all reside. All mammals possess this part of the brain; so its safe to say your dogs, cats, mice, rats, hamsters, etc all love you.

So what does this mean? Snakes cannot love, but snakes can feel emotion, granted they are basic but they still feel emotion.

From Dictionary.com: "emotion- an affective state of consciousness in which joy, sorrow, fear, hate, or the like, is experienced, as distinguished from cognitive and volitional states of consciousness. "
or wikipedia: :An emotion is a mental and physiological state associated with a wide variety of feelings, thoughts, and behavior."

So I strongly believe that my snake does have and feels emotions, he might not love me, but he can feel secure or insecure which equates to very basic emotions.

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Originally Posted by Shaun J

Well, its not an opinion. Its a fact that snakes can't love or hate.

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How is this a fact?

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Originally Posted by van_garret2000

How is this a fact?

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I want to know the same thing. A fact requires proof. If there is proof that snakes can't love or hate, I'm interested in seeing it.

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Originally Posted by TheOtherLeadingBrand

It actually upsets me that anyone with live animals would think they have literally NO EMOTIONS AT ALL (fear, contentment, the state of being annoyed- those *are* emotions, and recognizing that your animals experience at least those basic emotions does not mean you think your snakes love you).

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This disturbs me as well... it seems like a rather essential component of understanding and caring for your pet.

I know that I'm new to this hobby and this board but I'd like to share an observation I've made during my learning experience:
Snakes are very sensitive creatures. I suppose I wasn't expecting them to be so as much as they are.
Creatures that will go as far as complete fasting if their enclosure doesn't make them feel safe, or if they are handled too much - this doesn't sound like an emotionless, mindless creature to me. Wouldn't an emotionless, automaton-like creature be more likely to ignore such things and eat anyway?

The issue of love is a whole different can of worms, but in my opinion you can't say that snakes cannot feel essential emotions like fear, anger, contentment... they are too basic to survival. And all emotions are just reactions to stimuli, including those of humans.

Agreed.

Exactly. When I cry at a funeral, it is a reaction to stimuli. When my husband gets annoyed at work, it is a reaction to stimuli. When I smile and laugh because my baby is cute, it is a reaction to stimuli. I may react to things a snake would not, but that doesn't make my emotions more valid. Just unique to my species, as a snake's are to his :)

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Originally Posted by TheOtherLeadingBrand

Exactly. When I cry at a funeral, it is a reaction to stimuli. When my husband gets annoyed at work, it is a reaction to stimuli. When I smile and laugh because my baby is cute, it is a reaction to stimuli. I may react to things a snake would not, but that doesn't make my emotions more valid. Just unique to my species, as a snake's are to his :)

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Finally! Someone thinking correctly :D. I think we tend to exaggerate how "advanced" human emotion can be sometimes.

idk....my baby loves me...she doesn't ball up when i pull her out....jus climbs into me shirt...hehe

Love is not something that can be measured.

That said, even if you think that a snake's body (or any body) is just a biological machine and is incapable of love, I don't see what's wrong with people perceiving love from a pet, even if it's "anthropomorphizing." Trying to convince people there is no affection there when they perceive it all the time seems pointlessly cruel to me.

Why try to make less love in the world?

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Originally Posted by python kid

no,snakes don't have feelings they're mindless.

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LOL what!? :8:

Everyone keeps saying they are instinctive, but can not think; however, they do have the ability to survive. Every living thing has the ability to survive, not every living thing uses it. Hence untimely death. so theres some type of decision making involved.

anyway.. a snake could be thinking the same way of humans. just my 2 cents.

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Originally Posted by Sanova

anyway.. a snake could be thinking the same way of humans. just my 2 cents.

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I agree. It's possible. Maybe they lack the greed for power us humans have and are content to lay low.

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Originally Posted by b8g8

Love is not something that can be measured.

That said, even if you think that a snake's body (or any body) is just a biological machine and is incapable of love, I don't see what's wrong with people perceiving love from a pet, even if it's "anthropomorphizing." Trying to convince people there is no affection there when they perceive it all the time seems pointlessly cruel to me.

Why try to make less love in the world?

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Cus' it's not true.

I know snakes aren't capable of "love" in the human sense, but they have their own version of it - and I'm sticking to that. ;) Toby (my pastel) is clearly more affectionate toward me than other people, and seems to enjoy my touch. He even likes being rubbed on his head/chin, and gives little snake kisses when he's near my mouth & ears. So while I understand that doesn't qualify as love, he is more loving than I realized snakes could be. :)

everyone saying its impossible, your wrong. we will never know for sure...theres no way to tell. but me personally, i doubt it. im not going to throw it out though. lol

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Originally Posted by Qetu

everyone saying its impossible, your wrong. we will never know for sure...theres no way to tell.

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Amen to that! Somehow people keep forgetting that we can't read their minds.

I don't think snakes would ever hae anything personal against someone, but I do believe that they have some emotion. My first BP, Candice, seems like she does have feelings. Like, when I take her out, it seems like she's almost excited to be out and be handled (she always loves to be handled). She also likes it when I pet her head, strangely. She seems to do things that snakes don't like to do. She isn't a scardy cat BP, like my other BP. When she gets startled, she'll move her head back a little then puts it forward again. Here's a strange story I heard one time, and it is true:

One day this lady had to take her Burmese python to the vet while her husband was at work. The snake just needed it's regular check ups to make sure that the snake is healthy. Before she went to the vet, she needed to get gas for her car because it was on low. She put the large python in the back seat of her car, and the python curled up in the back seat and stayed there. The lady got out of her car to get gas, and when she finished she got right back into her car. As soon as she got into the car, a man with a knife got in the front passenger seat and told her to drive while holding the knife up like he was going to stab her if she disobeyed. The snake in the back seat struck out and bit down on the man's shoulder. Then, the snake made an attempt to wrap around the man. The snake stayed like this, wrapped around the man, when his owner called the police. The police quickly came over, and with some coaxing from his owner, the snake let go of the man. This story was in a newspaper arcticle.

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Originally Posted by CoolioTiffany

One day this lady had to take her Burmese python to the vet while her husband was at work. The snake just needed it's regular check ups to make sure that the snake is healthy. Before she went to the vet, she needed to get gas for her car because it was on low. She put the large python in the back seat of her car, and the python curled up in the back seat and stayed there. The lady got out of her car to get gas, and when she finished she got right back into her car. As soon as she got into the car, a man with a knife got in the front passenger seat and told her to drive while holding the knife up like he was going to stab her if she disobeyed. The snake in the back seat struck out and bit down on the man's shoulder. Then, the snake made an attempt to wrap around the man. The snake stayed like this, wrapped around the man, when his owner called the police. The police quickly came over, and with some coaxing from his owner, the snake let go of the man. This story was in a newspaper arcticle.

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Yeah I am going to need a citation for this one. Please provide.

On another note let me give you some insight into this thread. I have a friend of mine who is constantly making bad decisions based on emotions. Early in our friendship she would tell me about these bad decisions and I would tell her they are bad and the logic behind them being bad. Years later we are still friends and we talk often. She tells me about things in her life and sometimes my girlfriend will tell me something about our mutual friend that I do not know. Turns out that she has stopped telling me about her bad decisions. Its almost like she knows which ones are good and which ones are bad and picks and chooses what to tell me so that I won't point out that bad ones. Moral of the story is this. If you want to think your snake loves you great. We can be friends. But if you tell me that your snake loves you then I am going to tell you all about the limbic system and other parts of the brain. I don't care what you believe but I will not pass up an opportunity to educate someone and until you start making decisions based on logic, or walk away, I will continue to point out the error in your logic.

Oh and love can be measured, its called an MRI and the screen changes when you hear your loved ones voice. We may not be that good at measuring love but we certainly can measure it.

Maybe we can, but not accuritley. Science, psychology, religion and all forms of education are important, needed , make us the top of our food chain however, all of it is flaud, statistics are ruled by companies and governments, which are ruled by money, so the truth is pretty nonexistant . Mankind is flawed( I'm not talking about sin, I'm not christian) becuse of the freedom to think indipendently and for the fact that everyone's scope of reality, no matter how similair, is infinitley diffrent from all other humans and animals around us becuse of what we as individuals have faced. We, being at the top of our food chain have been givin the chance to evolve and grow as a race to such an extent that we have obtained the capacity to be good, bad and both at the same time. What I am trying to get at is that we as creative, free thinking and independent beings will see things diffrently from those around us so no matters on emotion, spirituality and education will be agreed on by every individual, and without that their can be no diffinitive source among humanity supporting a absolute truth in any subject of such personnel matters.

I take everything I learn , all data, knowledge "facts" with a grain of salt. With that said, according to psychology, or atleast the college class I took, it is impossible to dittermine wether any animal has feelings like ours. From interaction however, it seems that animals have individual personnalities and emotions, or this could just be my human mind trying to percieve the world through a humans aspect, not a unbiased one. We decide our realities, and I think if we can be individuals and experince emotion, and if we share traits with animals, no matter how great or small, why cant they have emotions and personnalities?

I don't think that any animal but humans and primates can love. They simply lack the brain power to experience emotions like that. Disagree with me you may, just don't insult me because I think only primates have the level of intelligence to love.

I'm surprised this thread is still active, and going strong. What happening to letting things go with dignity? lol

i think they love you in their own way, its not like doesnt know you, cause they do, and they feel safe and secure with you, and that feeling is like love... i like to think that you create a bond with your pets no matter what is that pet, but a bond its create and you and your pets knows about it

I dont think they "love" someone but they know who you are i have let other people hold him and he just sits there no tongue flickers and does not move. But when i hold him his tongue if flickering and he is moving around and exploring.

Dan

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Originally Posted by JasonGranger

If a ball python thrives in a simplistic setup, wouldn't that mean it was okay with it? If it "didn't like it," don't you think there would be repercussions? I.E., stress. Look at breeders like Adam, NERD, etc. Their ball pythons are kept in simplistic setups, and they eat, shed, poop, breed, etc. I think that's a good way of judging if your snake "likes" his home.

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I don't know. People in jail eat, shed, pop and breed if given the chance, yet i don't think they necesarily like it. Just because an animal can tolerate something doesn't mean they are in *optimal* conditions. I can´t agree with your use of the word thrive, i would substitute it for survive, just as humans in jails and lions in zoos.

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Originally Posted by nebby3103

Is there another side? We call upon science to solve these problems. Science has proven you wrong. Reptiles cannot experience human emotions in the way you claim they can.

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Science and scientific "knowledge and facts" changes every hundred years, or fifty years, five years or every year.
Earth was flat, then Columbus happened.
Earth was the center of the universe and stationary.
Remeber that planet called Pluto? Not a planet anymore.
¿Remember the asteroid that killed off the dinasaurs? May have been a coincidence.
Microscopic life, find evidence from before the 1600's.
Relativity anyone?

Neuroscience and behavioral psychology are just now getting started, give it some time and perhaps we will see lots of new journal reasearch pointing to new evidence on snake "feelings" and "emotions". With time lots of things will change. People used to say emotions and such were not caused by biochemical-neuro-reactions, but it has been proven that "love" and "attraction" are all induced by chemical reactions.

I rest my case, there is no such thing as Scientific Knowlege, only a temporaraly accepted explanation of phenomenons.

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Originally Posted by KiwisHeaven

My Big red tail, Calla, strikes at drunk people... I think she understands more then people give her credit for.

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An adult BP i rescued is also ANTI-BOOZE. You can open a beer in the room, within 10 minutes she is in a striking position pointed towards whoever is holding the beer. If you have had a beer, don't even consider opening her enclosure because she will strike at you. If you touch her she starts hissing like crazy. Even 8-12 hours after you have drunk, post shower and teeth brushing, she will not let you handle her. Weirdest thing i have ever seen.

BTW, she is an incredibly tame BP, she will leave her hide to rest on your hand, will sit on your lap for hours. I guess she just enjoys dry socializing.

I love my snakes and thats all that matters to me!

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Originally Posted by Denial

I love my snakes and thats all that matters to me!

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+1

i feel the same way,

I take good care of my pets.

They show it, and if they are capable of knowing it then they know it.

then again it's hard to train reptiles in mma to compete against each other...

I'm happy to know that they feel like eating and sleeping and reproducing.

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Originally Posted by Angelique

Science and scientific "knowledge and facts" changes every hundred years, or fifty years, five years or every year.
Earth was flat, then Columbus happened.
Earth was the center of the universe and stationary.
Remeber that planet called Pluto? Not a planet anymore.
¿Remember the asteroid that killed off the dinasaurs? May have been a coincidence.
Microscopic life, find evidence from before the 1600's.
Relativity anyone?

Neuroscience and behavioral psychology are just now getting started, give it some time and perhaps we will see lots of new journal reasearch pointing to new evidence on snake "feelings" and "emotions". With time lots of things will change. People used to say emotions and such were not caused by biochemical-neuro-reactions, but it has been proven that "love" and "attraction" are all induced by chemical reactions.

I rest my case, there is no such thing as Scientific Knowlege, only a temporaraly accepted explanation of phenomenons.

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That is ridiculous.

The earth was not flat, people believed it was flat.

The earth was not the center of the universe, people believed it was.

That planet called Pluto got demoted. Its still there. We just call it something different. Nothing changed about it. We reclassify things all the time.

That asteroid was a coincidence. It wasn't sent here to kill dinosaurs. dinosaurs didn't even go extinct they evolved into birds. Humans being wrong about that THEORY can hardly be used to discredit anything. It was never scientific fact in the first place.

Microscopic life existed before the 1600's and we found it when we got the tools to see things that small, again has nothing to do with the argument.

What about Relativity, seriously what are you getting at.

The people who believe in things without any proof believed that emotions were not caused by biochemical-neuro-reactions and eventually we managed convince enough people that was dumb and we ignore the people who are left.

In every one of your examples, except the relativity one which I don't get, you show people believing something based on limited understanding of the world around them. In every case a greater understanding of the world around them showed us that there is a better theory that explains what we see.

Scientific Knowledge is the temporarily accepted explanation of phenomenons. They are not two different things they are the same. I think that based on the evidence I have scene snakes don't have the emotion of love as we define it. So unless you can refute the evidence you aren't changing my mind. I am not saying that snakes are not amazing creatures capable of complex behaviors that we are far from understanding. They are truly amazing. They don't have the parts of the brain necessary to love the way humans do however. So unless they are hiding a more complex brain someplace I am just not with the "my snake loves me" camp.

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Originally Posted by Egapal

That is ridiculous.

The earth was not flat, people believed it was flat.

The earth was not the center of the universe, people believed it was.

That planet called Pluto got demoted. Its still there. We just call it something different. Nothing changed about it. We reclassify things all the time.

That asteroid was a coincidence. It wasn't sent here to kill dinosaurs. dinosaurs didn't even go extinct they evolved into birds. Humans being wrong about that THEORY can hardly be used to discredit anything. It was never scientific fact in the first place.

Microscopic life existed before the 1600's and we found it when we got the tools to see things that small, again has nothing to do with the argument.

What about Relativity, seriously what are you getting at.

The people who believe in things without any proof believed that emotions were not caused by biochemical-neuro-reactions and eventually we managed convince enough people that was dumb and we ignore the people who are left.

In every one of your examples, except the relativity one which I don't get, you show people believing something based on limited understanding of the world around them. In every case a greater understanding of the world around them showed us that there is a better theory that explains what we see.

Scientific Knowledge is the temporarily accepted explanation of phenomenons. They are not two different things they are the same. I think that based on the evidence I have scene snakes don't have the emotion of love as we define it. So unless you can refute the evidence you aren't changing my mind. I am not saying that snakes are not amazing creatures capable of complex behaviors that we are far from understanding. They are truly amazing. They don't have the parts of the brain necessary to love the way humans do however. So unless they are hiding a more complex brain someplace I am just not with the "my snake loves me" camp.

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OK what about GOD ? You can look at it 50 thousand diff ways so for you to think you know it all look at what he was saying again have an open mind !

Does it matter?
If so why? :rolleyes:

They are what they are & we love them. Some snakes exhibit actions that may or may not be affection.

My Madu Retic sometimes acts like it's her time of the month even though she does not menstruate. I still love 'em all unconditionally. I like to fuss over & care for things & that includes all animals in my care.

So in the end it doesn't matter a rat's hinny if they love me back or not. :snake:

Personally, I don't know what snakes feel or think. No one does. To state that snakes don't feel is to assume knowledge of something you can't possibly know. I am pretty sure though that one of my adult females HATES me:D

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Originally Posted by littleindiangirl

Humans don't have instincts. Look up the definition of instinct. We have many behaviors and drives that very closely resemble animal instincts, but when looking at the criteria of instincts, nothing humans do, in the entire species on the planet, can be labeled as an instinct.

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As a student of psychology I believe that what we call "instincts" are more complex than we understand. We say that humans don't have them because we understand ourselves better than animals. The more research that is done however, the closer animal behavior seems to human behavior. Bonobos for instance have been witnessed caring for injured animals and testing has shown that many animals undergo the same chemical reactions in the brain that humans do when exposed to emotional triggers. Also, there is evidence that tickling/tickle defense is instinctual. The automatic motions of children being tickled are now thought to be a basic, hardwired form of grappling.

My snakes (excluding my Redtail male) dont mind my handling them... but they express no affection...(my Redtail male has a big mouth and is territorial... always tries to snap at me when I open his cage)

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Originally Posted by NorthernRegius

Does it matter?
If so why? :rolleyes:

They are what they are & we love them. Some snakes exhibit actions that may or may not be affection.

My Madu Retic sometimes acts like it's her time of the month even though she does not menstruate. I still love 'em all unconditionally. I like to fuss over & care for things & that includes all animals in my care.

So in the end it doesn't matter a rat's hinny if they love me back or not. :snake:

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I am absolutely loving this reply & i must wholeheartedly agree!

Well i know snakes cannot love or whatever, but how about the fact a pattern begins to develop with feeding and handling and aclamation? Do they understand that?

Like i feel like my ball knows when i put him in his feed tub he knows what he is getting he knows what i am about to do...

Mine totally does. I love her more than a dog or cat because with Snakes, trust is such a much bigger issue. Once you have their trust, its such a wonderful feeling and they are so much more friendly and curious and loving IMHO.

BTW - I just got a new BP today, 4530grams!!!!! And beautiful and wonderful!!! I just had to share!

I think snakes to some degree have thoughts. I have a female ball python that I have had for almost four years and I think she recognizes who I am. there are other snakes I have that I havent had for too long and they dont seem like they feel anything except sensitivity to their head and pit areas.

I disagree that pythons can't feel emotions. They obviously feel fear. That is a primal emotion however. Can they love. Nope. Can they feel a lack of fear and therefore display some comfort with us. Yes, they can

i dont get it... i thought this was a place for people who "loved snakes". Maybe i just take it too far, i consider my snake an equal, and love it as i would love my child (granted im only 15, and have no children), but would never drop the fact that i am the boss, and make the rules. Either way, i KNOW my snake loves me, I walk in the room, he notices me, and tries to escape his cage (pushing the locked top of his cage) to greet me. Whenever he does somthing he looks to me as if to say, "look daddy i ate a mouse!" or "Look daddy, I pooped on you! Are you proud of me???". Its like he loves getting my attention... Also he will let me scratch the underside of his neck, and head. WHAT BP WILL LET YOU DO THAT??? Any way, call me crazy but i know my bp loves me...

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Mine totally does. I love her more than a dog or cat because with Snakes, trust is such a much bigger issue. Once you have their trust, its such a wonderful feeling and they are so much more friendly and curious and loving IMHO.

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I totally agree with this, I'm in the process of gaining my new python's trust and it is such a satisfying feeling to see her uncoil and start to be comfortable being handled by me. Watching them come out of their shell is amazing.

I don't think my snake loves me, and I don't even know if she's capable of feeling affection for me. But she is learning to feel secure in my presence, and that makes me feel good.

my snake loves me, even got a kiss from her......
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/v...9/IMG_7014.jpg:)

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Originally Posted by royal6

my snake loves me, even got a kiss from her......
http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/v...9/IMG_7014.jpg:)

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That's some love right there, doesn't get no better then that right?

Nice Tag:gj:

I'm actually not that surprised that 47% of the people on this forum think that their ball pythons love them. It just goes to show that they don't know crap about snakes.

Later, Matt

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Originally Posted by DutchHerp

I'm actually not that surprised that 47% of the people on this forum think that their ball pythons love them. It just goes to show that they don't know crap about snakes.

Later, Matt

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:rofl: actually nearly lost a mouthful of beer reading that.

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Originally Posted by snakey68

:rofl: actually nearly lost a mouthful of beer reading that.

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Yeah, I've had that with many people's posts on this forum even if they weren't trying to be humorous.

Later, Matt

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Originally Posted by ilovemyballs

WHAT BP WILL LET YOU DO THAT???

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All 50 of mine. Just saying......

Bottom line is what you think about your snakes. Only YOU know your snakes and their moods, moves, etc. There is really no way to know FOR SURE if they have the perpensity for love or not. For anyone to insinuate that someone is stupid or ignorant for believing that their snake loves them is just plain rude and quite frankly ignorant to others feelings. There is absolutely nothing wrong with believing that a snake can have feelings of gratitude, love, or recognition.

:O Royal....that is ALOT of lovin!!:8: