WLP getting tested for Inclusion body disease.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Honestly I'd be surprised if it were crypto since you've had him a year. If it is then the only reason he's still alive is because of the exemplary care he's received from you.

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I've been trying to read up on it more, trying to find anything to ease my mind or rule it out, but the symptoms seem pretty generic and just bring up more questions

I've had this snake for a year now, and I'd say he was hovering close to a year old, give or take, when I got him. If he's 2 years old, he hasn't grown very much in that time.

I'm not sure what other possibilities there are here. But if this is something that's exacerbated by stress (considering this is a very stress sensitive species) I'm sort of surprised it wasn't worse during all the vet visits, treatments and prodding he was getting last year

He was gaining weight, eating every 6-7 days from the first week of October into the first week of January. He regurgitated on 1/13, but went into shed a week or so after, so I had assumed that it was stress. I waited another week after he shed to feed another mouse, and he upped it a day later, undigested. Right now he's back down to his previous weight.

The only other thing I could think of is that the hookworms never resolved. The vet didn't think that could be the case though. I feel really bad for this snake.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Honestly I'd be surprised if it were crypto since you've had him a year. If it is then the only reason he's still alive is because of the exemplary care he's received from you.

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Thank you for the kind words. From you, Bogertophis, and everyone else. The support I get from you guys, I really appreciate it.

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I was wondering the same thing, about the hookworms. And I hate to say this, but I wonder if he could have caught something while at the vet's? So hard to know, with a stressed snake that has been exposed to so much along the way. :confusd:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I was wondering the same thing, about the hookworms. And I hate to say this, but I wonder if he could have caught something while at the vet's? So hard to know, with a stressed snake that has been exposed to so much along the way. :confusd:

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They said he didn't need another follow-up after the treatment, no fecal was done after the course was completed. She said he wouldn't be regurgitating unless the hookworm infestation was high. But, maybe it is.

I never really though about how it works. But I just read that Metronidazole can block the reproductive cycle of adult worms, but I didn't see anything about it killing the oocysts. Maybe I'm wrong.

Or... maybe he did catch something. [emoji3525]

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Unfortunately nothing kills oocysts except ammonia, which is not a treatment option for your snake.

Crypto is also highly contagious which means if you have other snakes they're at risk.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Unfortunately nothing kills oocysts except ammonia, which is not a treatment option for your snake.

Crypto is also highly contagious which means if you have other snakes they're at risk.

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I meant hookworm eggs, not oocysts. I've been researching as much as I can all day, used the wrong word. Just tired and worried.


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I've been doing as much research as I can, but Id say it's led to more questions on my part.

In terms of symptom onset, progression once clinical signs have begun, i wasnt sure if there was a general timeframe to it after they do start showing symptoms associated with this?

From what I had read, typically snakes don't survive more than a year after they're showing clinical symptoms. From stories that I've read from others at least, it seems like the decline is rapid and death soon after, once the animals is newly acquired or otherwise infected by another animal, maybe delayed by a few months.

With this guy, the seller had him for 3 months (if I recall correctly) before selling him, to treat him for internal parasites and make sure he was eating. When I brought him home, he ate enthusiastically for 3 months or so and was very active and healthy by all appearances, then during the last week of June, he refused his first meal unrelated to being in shed, and I noticed him being more lethargic, then anorexic in turn.

Never once had issues with regurgitation, only had a small amount of blood with diarrhea at the end of his metro treatment when he had also passed some small, pointy debris as his body cleaned out. Vet warned me ahead of time that it was normal, and it didn't happen again after that.

After treatment, he was a very enthusiastic eater, but was still skittish about f/t, so I only gave live hoppers. Still could spook during feedings, which wasn't a noticable issue prior, but he's also a WLP. He gained a solid amount of weight in a relatively short time, and the vet was impressed with his condition.

So, aren't these technically symptoms, and would they be this easy to delay in snakes? I'm not sure if a 3 course Metro treatment would repress crypto for a bit, and this is a rebound? But with all the tube feedings, frequent vet visits and handling, probings he got for such a long time, not once did he regurgitate, and I would think that would be the time it would be more of a risk?

I'm not really sure how common or inclined a snake would be toward regurgitation if this was a rebound of an unresolved hookworm infection, either. Or what the chances of that are here. But I'm confused as to how this has been progressing, and if this is typical of crypto if that's what it could be, if that makes sense.

Just trying to understand this. I'm still in shock honestly. Not trying to pretend a serious issue isnt here, but what else could it be?


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I don't think Flagyl ("metro-") would have any effect on crypto.

It still hasn't been confirmed that your WLP has crypto, has it? :confusd: Wasn't that just an educated guess from your vet? I'd try to get some prey into him as was suggested, so if (or when) he regurgitates, you can get a diagnostic test done & so you'll actually know what you're dealing with. Until then, I would not assume it has to be that- but practice good isolation for whatever it is.

If he won't take any prey, I'd try another tube-feed to see if you can at least get a stool sample for testing.

I'm sorry this has been so frustrating & complicated to deal with. Maybe there's some truth to the old adage "No good deed goes unpunished". :( But even with c/b snakes from good sources, we never know when something could go terribly wrong. No living things are infallible- I just wish snakes weren't so stoic.

And some of these questions (like about the hookworms) are better directed to your vet.

At this point, from where I sit, I don't think either crypto or hookworms are ruled out, but there could also be something entirely different that's wrong.

I know how hard this is, & how badly you want this beautiful python to survive & be healthy- so do I- & the uncertainty is just awful. Hang in there.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I don't think Flagyl ("metro-") would have any effect on crypto.

It still hasn't been confirmed that your WLP has crypto, has it? :confusd: Wasn't that just an educated guess from your vet? I'd try to get some prey into him as was suggested, so if (or when) he regurgitates, you can get a diagnostic test done & so you'll actually know what you're dealing with. Until then, I would not assume it has to be that- but practice good isolation for whatever it is.

If he won't take any prey, I'd try another tube-feed to see if you can at least get a stool sample for testing.

I'm sorry this has been so frustrating & complicated to deal with. Maybe there's some truth to the old adage "No good deed goes unpunished". :( But even with c/b snakes from good sources, we never know when something could go terribly wrong. No living things are infallible- I just wish snakes weren't so stoic.

And some of these questions (like about the hookworms) are better directed to your vet.

At this point, from where I sit, I don't think either crypto or hookworms are ruled out, but there could also be something entirely different that's wrong.

I know how hard this is, & how badly you want this beautiful python to survive & be healthy- so do I- & the uncertainty is just awful. Hang in there.

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She didn't confirm it. I expect the educated guesses, that's how the processes starts. She put cryptosporidosis on the table and we left it at that. It's just left a lot of room for me to worry. Same went with the IBD.

She didn't seem too receptive to the idea of it being hook worm related. Which confused me because it seems very easy to get reinfected with hookworms, since they can also burrow in through skin contact. But, like you said, it could be something else entirely.

After his 3rd dose of metro, he passed a bunch of those worms and other junk, and he was a pig. So the meds did something.

She said it would be fine, but I'm still worried about offering him food again so soon after regurgitating. I've waited a few more days, since this 2nd regurg was 2/24 and I was just nervous about giving him time to recover. I hope this won't be too soon.

I'm going to the store tomorrow to get a small live hopper, the smallest they have. I'll get some Nutribac on it with a bit of water. Maybe that'll help.




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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Awesomethepossum

She didn't confirm it. I expect the educated guesses, that's how the processes starts. She put cryptosporidosis on the table and we left it at that. It's just left a lot of room for me to worry. Same went with the IBD.

She didn't seem too receptive to the idea of it being hook worm related. Which confused me because it seems very easy to get reinfected with hookworms, since they can also burrow in through skin contact. But, like you said, it could be something else entirely.

After his 3rd dose of metro, he passed a bunch of those worms and other junk, and he was a pig. So the meds did something.

She said it would be fine, but I'm still worried about offering him food again so soon after regurgitating. I've waited a few more days, since this 2nd regurg was 2/24 and I was just nervous about giving him time to recover. I hope this won't be too soon.

I'm going to the store tomorrow to get a small live hopper, the smallest they have. I'll get some Nutribac on it with a bit of water. Maybe that'll help.




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This shouldn't be "too soon" after his latest regurge on 2/24, as long as the prey is on the small side. And I'll be hoping you finally have some better luck with him. :please:

I don't think IBD is at all likely- but crypto, who knows? I vaguely recall a thread* from a gal in Europe who got a corn snake from a pet store, & struggled with it (regurgitating meals)- it was really unusual because sometimes it showed a small mid-body swelling, but then it would disappear, which makes no sense at all. (*I'm not sure if that thread was on this forum or not, it's been a while.) I'm so sorry that you're having to worry about crypto as a possible cause.

Anyway, I assume your vet ruled out blockages, whether from swallowed undigestible debris, or an abnormal growth-like a tumor? Some animals (of all kinds) can be born or hatched with an abnormally narrow passageway in their digestive tract, that only shows up when they grow. And your vet should be the one to come up with other possible causes- as far as internal parasites or other seldom-seen diseases. If you're not convinced about the hookworms being the possible issue, I'd ask more questions about that too. (But maybe he'll finally keep this one down, eh? I HOPE!)

Flagyl is an appetite stimulant which is why it's commonly given to WC imports. Not only does it treat for parasites but it encourages stressed snakes to eat.

Hopefully it's just a resurgence of the hookworms. I've not had to deal with worming snakes, but with my horses I had to worm constantly and rotate through different types of wormers because parasites would become resistant if you just used one. So, if this snake was dosed with flagyl when it was imported, and some of the worms survived, then your vet dosed with flagyl again, and now it still has some hookworms, it might be worthwhile to switch to a different wormer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

This shouldn't be "too soon" after his latest regurge on 2/24, as long as the prey is on the small side. And I'll be hoping you finally have some better luck with him. :please:

I don't think IBD is at all likely- but crypto, who knows? I vaguely recall a thread* from a gal in Europe who got a corn snake from a pet store, & struggled with it (regurgitating meals)- it was really unusual because sometimes it showed a small mid-body swelling, but then it would disappear, which makes no sense at all. (*I'm not sure if that thread was on this forum or not, it's been a while.) I'm so sorry that you're having to worry about crypto as a possible cause.

Anyway, I assume your vet ruled out blockages, whether from swallowed undigestible debris, or an abnormal growth-like a tumor? Some animals (of all kinds) can be born or hatched with an abnormally narrow passageway in their digestive tract, that only shows up when they grow. And your vet should be the one to come up with other possible causes- as far as internal parasites or other seldom-seen diseases. If you're not convinced about the hookworms being the possible issue, I'd ask more questions about that too. (But maybe he'll finally keep this one down, eh? I HOPE!)

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He's negative for IBD, she didn't mention blockages or tumors. I'll mention that when I go in this week.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Flagyl is an appetite stimulant which is why it's commonly given to WC imports. Not only does it treat for parasites but it encourages stressed snakes to eat.

Hopefully it's just a resurgence of the hookworms. I've not had to deal with worming snakes, but with my horses I had to worm constantly and rotate through different types of wormers because parasites would become resistant if you just used one. So, if this snake was dosed with flagyl when it was imported, and some of the worms survived, then your vet dosed with flagyl again, and now it still has some hookworms, it might be worthwhile to switch to a different wormer.

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You're right..the seller treated him, then held onto him a month to make sure he was eating well post treatment. Said he was eating like a pig. Ate well for me for a couple of months, went off food, was treated, ate well for a few months...went off again. And here we are.

I got him a very small, live mouse fuzzy, got it wet and sprinkled a little Nutribac on top. He just ate it. I guess we'll see. I'm hoping he keeps this one down, either way, I need to see her in the next day or so, depending on how he does with it.

But thank you-you made a really good point. I'm definitely bringing this up when I see her

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Just to be on the safe side, I'd wait a good 5 days to make sure he keeps this one down before visiting the vet again- & I agree w/ bcr229 also.

To the best of my knowledge, Flagyl (metronidazole) doesn't treat for hookworms- but yes, it tends to stimulate a snake's appetite, as it gets rid of protazoans. (not hookworms) If your snake was only given Flagyl, it's likely that the hookworms are still alive & well. BTW, metronidazole is also sold for dosing tropical fish. ("Aqua-Zole" or "Fish-Zole" etc)

It's been a while since I've needed either one, but to get rid of worms in a snake, I've used fenbendazole (Panacur), in the form of horse dewormer paste* (put in the oral cavity of the mouse that was fed). For safety, I cautiously used a somewhat lower dose & repeated it several times, so as not to cause a massive die-off of worms that can (in some cases) die off & cause blockages** in areas they may have migrated to in a snake's body. (**which could also cause other & sometimes serious, even fatal issues). Remember, "First do no harm". ;)

*(https://www.chewy.com/panacur-equine...gaApT2EALw_wcB

To the best of my knowledge, Ivermectin is more effective against hookworms, but it's also pretty strong & can harm (kill) a snake if not used VERY carefully. It too is sold in various forms- a paste for deworming horses, & an injectable form for cattle. I actually use the latter (a TINY calculated dose extracted from the bottle with a syringe) every month to prevent heartworm in my dogs- years back, my then-vet told me about it, as it's so much less expensive than the oral chewies sold for dogs, but it's not the best method for everyone. The tiny dose is then applied to something the dog eats- I use a bit of bread w/ peanut butter to cover the medicinal taste. My dogs have never had heartworms & I've been safely using this for years. But always ask your vet before using this for your dogs- as there are some dog breeds that are sensitive to all these medications, & this one has very little margin for error- and especially in snakes! Ivermectin is sold in feed stores without prescription, fyi. And I've NEVER used it on a snake, btw.

By the way- just for clarity here & so we don't have to re-read this whole thread for details, can you specify what meds you & your vet have used so far on this WLP?

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

By the way- just for clarity here & so we don't have to re-read this whole thread for details, can you specify what meds you & your vet have used so far on this WLP?

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Metronidazole and Fortaz

He received 3 doses of Metronidazole for the hookworms.

And the injections of Fortaz which, I believe, was every 3 days for about 2 months. That was for the infection shown in his high WBC count, which was assumed to be related to the hookworms, since IBD was ruled out and his blood tests came back normal otherwise


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Awesomethepossum

Metronidazole and Fortaz

He received 3 doses of Metronidazole for the hookworms.

And the injections of Fortaz which, I believe, was every 3 days for about 2 months. That was for the infection shown in his high WBC count, which was assumed to be related to the hookworms, since IBD was ruled out and his blood tests came back normal otherwise


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So if your vet is SURE that this snake has hookworms, then metronidazole would seem to be the wrong drug for the job. See my post #64 above.

And by all means, do your own reading up on treating hookworms effectively in snakes. I don't find Metronidazole recommended anywhere for hookworms.

I'm not a vet but I can read. And WOW, that was a LOT of Fortaz! I've never used it & haven't researched that specifically (yet), but antibiotics in general are rough on a snake's body, & every 3 days for 2 months is a long time. It would be a miracle if he WASN'T regurgitating after killing off his gut bacteria so effectively.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Awesomethepossum

Metronidazole and Fortaz

He received 3 doses of Metronidazole for the hookworms.

And the injections of Fortaz which, I believe, was every 3 days for about 2 months. That was for the infection shown in his high WBC count, which was assumed to be related to the hookworms, since IBD was ruled out and his blood tests came back normal otherwise


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I also have to wonder if he would have NEEDED the Fortaz* (*at all, or for so many injections?) if his hookworms had actually been addressed? I think you need to ask your vet a lot of questions. :(

Also, has he kept ANY kind of food down (liquid or solid) SINCE he was done with the Fortaz? If that's what is causing his regurgitations, then I'd be tube-feeding him (Gerber's chicken diluted plus probiotics) for a while as it's easier for his stomach to handle. But since you just fed him, I'll keep my fingers crossed & hope he can handle it. :please:

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Originally Posted by Awesomethepossum

...
She didn't seem too receptive to the idea of it being hook worm related. Which confused me because it seems very easy to get reinfected with hookworms, since they can also burrow in through skin contact. But, like you said, it could be something else entirely.

After his 3rd dose of metro, he passed a bunch of those worms and other junk, and he was a pig. So the meds did something.....

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Backing up to an earlier post of yours:

I think that all the 3 doses of metronidazole (aka Flagyl) did was stimulate his appetite & manage to "harass" some of his hookworms into leaving- they're not likely to be gone from Flagyl alone.

The more I think about what this snake has gone thru (all that Fortaz!) I have a hunch that crypto is not at all responsible for his regurgitation, which is good :) but now you have to get him cleaned out from the remaining hookworms, but do it GENTLY so his body can recover since his digestion has been thrashed. He needs some TLC x 100. ;)

That his appetite came back ("he was a pig") after 3 doses of Flagyl is NORMAL & expected, but it doesn't mean he was rid of hookworms at that time. Think about it- just because he felt hungry didn't mean his stomach was in any shape to receive & digest his food either, so that's why he regurgitated. I'll say it again- antibiotics are not harmless- they're very hard on a snake's body. They kill the "good gut bacteria" needed for digestion & they're also hard on other organs (liver & kidney).

It's no wonder he's been losing weight- he's been sharing his food with worms PLUS regurgitating when he's tried to eat because his stomach needs help.

You might need a different vet's opinion if this one is as unreceptive as you stated. Sorry to say- but only you know if you can really communicate with her on this or not. I wish I had caught this earlier- but when you said your vet found hookworms, I assumed he was being correctly dosed to get rid of them, & that the Flagyl was in addition to that medication -to stimulate his appetite & clear other parasites he was likely to have. What would have helped in this thread is a one-post "time-line" showing his meds & his regurgitations- it's hard for us to keep it straight or to know how long meds were given.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

I also have to wonder if he would have NEEDED the Fortaz* (*at all, or for so many injections?) if his hookworms had actually been addressed? I think you need to ask your vet a lot of questions. :(

Also, has he kept ANY kind of food down (liquid or solid) SINCE he was done with the Fortaz? If that's what is causing his regurgitations, then I'd be tube-feeding him (Gerber's chicken diluted plus probiotics) for a while as it's easier for his stomach to handle. But since you just fed him, I'll keep my fingers crossed & hope he can handle it. :please:

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It was .04 ml each dose. I want to think I'm wrong about the timeframe for that, that I'm overshooting the duration, but it was no less than a month. They gave me a large bag of them. Honestly, it's hard to remember exactly, (I was pretty stressed out, to be honest) but I know I did stop giving it to him a few doses early because I wanted to focus on him eating

I keep records of all feedings and weigh-ins. He's been eating on his own since 10/7. He's eaten 15 times from then, up to this first regurg on 1/13.

During that span of time, he went from his lowest of 125g, all the way up to 258g by the end of November. This weight gain stagnated around early January because his appetite eased a bit, up to the last meal he kept down on 1/6, (which was right after a shed). As of Wednesday, he's back to around 150g.

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Well, if this latest small meal comes back up, just think about him like he's a human that's had the stomach flu, & needs a soft diet for a while until their stomach is ready to digest solid food- don't panic & think it's something awful like "crypto". ;) I think it's much more likely to be from the Fortaz.

Also, IF he cannot digest solid food yet, work on him keeping a liquid diet down- the hookworms can wait a while, until his body is in better shape. Dosing a snake with multiple meds is often poorly tolerated- just an observation of mine from this & other forums. :snake:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Backing up to an earlier post of yours:

I think that all the 3 doses of metronidazole (aka Flagyl) did was stimulate his appetite & manage to "harass" some of his hookworms into leaving- they're not likely to be gone from Flagyl alone.

The more I think about what this snake has gone thru (all that Fortaz!) I have a hunch that crypto is not at all responsible for his regurgitation, which is good :) but now you have to get him cleaned out from the remaining hookworms, but do it GENTLY so his body can recover since his digestion has been thrashed. He needs some TLC x 100. ;)

That his appetite came back ("he was a pig") after 3 doses of Flagyl is NORMAL & expected, but it doesn't mean he was rid of hookworms at that time. Think about it- just because he felt hungry didn't mean his stomach was in any shape to receive & digest his food, so that's why he regurgitated. I'll say it again- antibiotics are not harmless- they're very hard on a snake's body.

It's no wonder he's been losing weight- he's been sharing his food with worms PLUS regurgitating when he's tried to eat because his stomach needs help.

You might need a different vet's opinion if this one is as unreceptive as you stated. Sorry to say- but only you know if you can really communicate with her on this or not. I wish I had caught this earlier- but when you said your vet found hookworms, I assumed he was being correctly dosed to get rid of them, & that the Flagyl was in addition to that medication -to stimulate his appetite & clear other parasites he was likely to have. What would have helped in this thread is a one-post "time-line" showing his meds & his regurgitations- it's hard for us to keep it straight.

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You're right- should have been more detailed, and listed all the meds, and the treatment plan. To be honest, I was pretty burnt out from all of this last year

I've searched around in the past, but used this place because while I worked for animal control, we regularly used them for treating injured wildlife. That, and I've used them in the past with other reptiles. They're supposed to be the "go-to" around here for exotics. And they're fairly close to me.

I still want to get him tested for the crypto of course, but if he keeps it down, they want me to bring him in 3 days from the successful feeding. I guess, to get a sample of his stomach contents for testing, if he doesn't "up" it, in which case, I'm to collect a sample of the fluids on the rodent. But I also don't want him to stress puke either.

I think I just have terrible luck with vets.

(Completely unrelated story,... while still being somewhat relevant to back that statement I just made, the last exotic vet clinic I went to actually killed one of my tiger salamanders in the single visit I made there. The vet told me I kept my salamander too cold", and took him into another room, where he apparently tried to "warm him up" with a hot wash cloth and heating pad. Brought him back into the room dead. I was devastated.
This same vet ended up getting arrested in a police sting for soliciting minors last year. )

And also, a pic of my guy from a couple of months ago


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...33176dd195.jpg



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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Well, if this latest small meal comes back up, just think about him like he's a human that's had the stomach flu, & needs a soft diet for a while until their stomach is ready to digest solid food- don't panic & think it's something awful like "crypto". ;) I think it's much more likely to be from the Fortaz.

Also, IF he cannot digest solid food yet, work on him keeping a liquid diet down- the hookworms can wait a while, until his body is in better shape. Dosing a snake with multiple meds is often poorly tolerated- just an observation of mine from this & other forums. :snake:

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Would he start having issues keeping food down related to the Fortaz after eating well for a while? Or is that just in conjunction with the worms flaring back up, if that be the case?

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Awesomethepossum

Would he start having issues keeping food down related to the Fortaz after eating well for a while? Or is that just in conjunction with the worms flaring back up, if that be the case?

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See, that's what I was getting at when I said a time-line would help. If he finished the Fortaz, & has kept food down for a while SINCE then, it shouldn't be the Fortaz (or rather the lack of digestive enzymes after Fortaz treatment) that's causing him to regurgitate. It could be the worms, it could be something else, & yes, I agree you should test him for crypto, just in case he was exposed somewhere along the way, since it's very contagious. But don't assume it has to be that.

https://reptilesmagazine.com/the-vet...regurgitation/ excerpt: (after discussing the most common husbandry issues)

..."There are a number of other causes that make up the remaining 10 percent of vomiting cases. There are several diseases that can cause a snake to vomit or regurgitate shortly after taking a meal. The exact mechanisms are beyond the scope of this article, but some of the causes can include bacteria, fungal infections, viruses, parasites, obstructions, cancer, kidney, liver and pancreatic diseases, and brain damage. The diagnosis of some of these conditions can be as simple as examining a routine fecal sample or as intricate as performing elaborate laboratory tests or even an MRI. Unfortunately, some of these latter tests can be quite costly."...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Awesomethepossum

You're right- should have been more detailed, and listed all the meds, and the treatment plan. To be honest, I was pretty burnt out from all of this last year

I've searched around in the past, but used this place because while I worked for animal control, we regularly used them for treating injured wildlife. That, and I've used them in the past with other reptiles. They're supposed to be the "go-to" around here for exotics. And they're fairly close to me.

I still want to get him tested for the crypto of course, but if he keeps it down, they want me to bring him in 3 days from the successful feeding. I guess, to get a sample of his stomach contents for testing, if he doesn't "up" it, in which case, I'm to collect a sample of the fluids on the rodent. But I also don't want him to stress puke either.

I think I just have terrible luck with vets.

(Completely unrelated story,... while still being somewhat relevant to back that statement I just made, the last exotic vet clinic I went to actually killed one of my tiger salamanders in the single visit I made there. The vet told me I kept my salamander too cold", and took him into another room, where he apparently tried to "warm him up" with a hot wash cloth and heating pad. Brought him back into the room dead. I was devastated.
This same vet ended up getting arrested in a police sting for soliciting minors last year. )

And also, a pic of my guy from a couple of months ago


https://ball-pythons.net/forums/cach...33176dd195.jpg



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Believe me, I can tell how stressful this has been for you. Gosh, he's a beautiful snake! :love:

I think it goes with the territory- exotics (especially herps) are a challenge, & most vets in this field would starve if that's all they saw. So nearly all of them see way more than herps, therefore they don't have as much experience as we expect to see from vets that treat more typical pets (dogs & cats). And because it often goes poorly, or there's few or no exotic vet nearby, or because many of those who own herps are under-age (& may have unsupportive parents), some herp-keepers don't bother to see the vet because they already expect a poor outcome no matter what (or they're in the business & do their own medical care)- so our vets don't get the experience they need to get really good.

Add to that how stoic our snakes are :rolleyes: and how much depends on us to describe every little thing to the vet. I've concluded that the local "go-to herp vet" is often so labeled because they're the only one around or the one most used. So [full disclosure] I don't have great luck with herp vets either. I wish I did. I'm so sorry about your salamander though...gee that was awful. :( I think we also have to realize that the reason we're less impressed with herp vets is because we already KNOW more than most of their walk-in pet-parents do, so it's harder to put things over on us. ;) Many of us snake-keepers have learned to do a lot of our own research. BTW, I would avoid "stress-puking" your WLP also. He really needs some nourishment for a while.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Believe me, I can tell how stressful this has been for you. Gosh, he's a beautiful snake! :love:

I think it goes with the territory- exotics (especially herps) are a challenge, & most vets in this field would starve if that's all they saw. So nearly all of them see way more than herps, therefore they don't have as much experience as we expect to see from vets that treat more typical pets (dogs & cats). And because it often goes poorly, or there's few or no exotic vet nearby, or because many of those who own herps are under-age (& may have unsupportive parents), some herp-keepers don't bother to see the vet because they already expect a poor outcome no matter what (or they're in the business & do their own medical care)- so our vets don't get the experience they need to get really good.

Add to that how stoic our snakes are :rolleyes: and how much depends on us to describe every little thing to the vet. I've concluded that the local "go-to herp vet" is often so labeled because they're the only one around or the one most used. So [full disclosure] I don't have great luck with herp vets either. I wish I did. I'm so sorry about your salamander though...gee that was awful. :( I think we also have to realize that the reason we're less impressed with herp vets is because we already KNOW more than most of their walk-in pet-parents do, so it's harder to put things over on us. ;) Many of us snake-keepers have learned to do a lot of our own research. BTW, I would avoid "stress-puking" your WLP also. He really needs some nourishment for a while.

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I guess that's why it's getting complicated. Deciphering where to draw the line with relying on the vet and following their instructions, and going outside of that.

Keeping in mind what you've said, paired with my own hesitant feelings about how the process has gone so far, and the lack of real results. It adds more heavily to my concerns. Especially if this IS the worms, and it could have been resolved with panacur months ago. And that I could have possibly just treated him myself with it. Or still could. Because from what I'm reading, yeah, flagyl shouldn't have been the go-to for the hookworms, which is really frustrating.

So far, he's kept that fuzzy mouse down. If he doesnt regurg/vomit, I'm unsure if I should take him back to the vet right away, if I should be focusing on getting food in him. Unless he does, I wouldn't be able to get him in to see her this week anyway.

I don't want to delay testing, or create an awkward dynamic with the vet since she was insistent with the 3 day thing. But it's at the point where I'm not sure where I should be taking more initiative, with his recovery in mind.

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Yes, very complicated. I'm glad you've had a chance to read some more & came to the same conclusion about Flagyl versus Panacur for hookworms. You still don't want to "burn your bridge" with the vet (since some doctors- of all kinds- don't take kindly to our input & instead expect us just to do as they say) so it puts you in a tough spot- I sure get that. It's wonderful to find a doctor (or vet) that sees their patients as part of the "team" but they're hard to come by.

You may just have to "follow your gut" on this- I'm sure you could find reasons to postpone going in for testing this week, if that's your choice. On the other hand, he did eat willingly, right? So no reason to think he won't again- but it would be really nice to know if he fully keeps this meal down without "provocation" from the vet. If that was me, I'd be more willing to bring him in for the test ("3 days after a successful small meal") after he's had at least one more such meal (assuming he keeps this down). If he was my snake, I'd really want to see a little more food in him to keep up his strength- if you can stand not knowing for a little longer (ie. the crypto test). Especially since you mentioned how much weight he's lost.

It's really a tough job to be a vet- they likely feel pressured to get the pets we love healthy as soon as possible- only with snakes, sometimes I think they try to throw too much at a snake's fragile body all at once. But that's just my opinion & I'm not a vet, so there you go- it's your call. And only you know his current condition (as far as how thin he is). If you can, be honest but tactful with your vet with your questions & hesitations. Listen with an open mind too, but if it still doesn't seem right to you, you'll have to be the "advocate" for your WLP.

As far as this possibly being any sort of blockage (debris or tumor or abnormal GI tract), the vet could do a scan for that, right? Pricey though, if it can be avoided (medically helped instead).

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Originally Posted by Awesomethepossum

...

So far, he's kept that fuzzy mouse down. If he doesnt regurg/vomit, I'm unsure if I should take him back to the vet right away, if I should be focusing on getting food in him. Unless he does, I wouldn't be able to get him in to see her this week anyway.

I don't want to delay testing, or create an awkward dynamic with the vet since she was insistent with the 3 day thing. But it's at the point where I'm not sure where I should be taking more initiative, with his recovery in mind.

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Another way I'd look at this right now is to consider what's likely better for the snake: to quickly see the vet to test for crypto? or to help his nutrition & body weight?

If your snake actually has crypto, then his outcome is bad no matter how fast you find out. :( The main downside of waiting is any risk to other snakes you might have.
(Has he ever had any mucoid diarrhea, btw?)

If your snake does not have crypto, but he continues to have a poor nutritional status, then no matter what his current issue is, he could also develop another health issue since his body is weak.

It's your decision, even though it's sometimes challenging to be on the same page with your vet. ;)

But I'd still have to wonder why she never gave him Panacur to get rid of the hookworms which she verified in his stool right away? Both Flagyl & Panacur are pretty safely used in snakes & very helpful, especially in wild-caught snakes- but they don't do the same thing. I've used them both very effectively, btw.

You mentioned that the seller said he had already treated this snake for "internal parasites"- but whether he used both of these meds would be helpful to know. Even if both were used, apparently he only treated enough for the snake to appear healthy enough to be sold, without fully getting rid of the hookworms. Oh the joys of w/c imported snakes...:rolleyes: This is why many don't survive, sadly- the parasites, the stress from shipping+ plus the exposure to other diseases along the way. But with luck & in the right hands...:please:

Your vet also seems to jump to the most scary conclusions before testing- first it was IBD, now Crypto. Maybe she's recently dealt with some very sad cases, but most doctors don't give patients such dire news without being sure.

Bear in mind most exotic vets don't deal with WC critters often, so they're looking for the contagious diseases most prevalent in CB populations. Folks who regularly deal with WC usually treat for parasites themselves instead of going to the vet as wormers are available over the counter.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Another way I'd look at this right now is to consider what's likely better for the snake: to quickly see the vet to test for crypto? or to help his nutrition & body weight?

If your snake actually has crypto, then his outcome is bad no matter how fast you find out. :( The main downside of waiting is any risk to other snakes you might have.
(Has he ever had any mucoid diarrhea, btw?)

If your snake does not have crypto, but he continues to have a poor nutritional status, then no matter what his current issue is, he could also develop another health issue since his body is weak.

It's your decision, even though it's sometimes challenging to be on the same page with your vet. ;)

But I'd still have to wonder why she never gave him Panacur to get rid of the hookworms which she verified in his stool right away? Both Flagyl & Panacur are pretty safely used in snakes & very helpful, especially in wild-caught snakes- but they don't do the same thing. I've used them both very effectively, btw.

You mentioned that the seller said he had already treated this snake for "internal parasites"- but whether he used both of these meds would be helpful to know. Even if both were used, apparently he only treated enough for the snake to appear healthy enough to be sold, without fully getting rid of the hookworms. Oh the joys of w/c imported snakes...:rolleyes: This is why many don't survive, sadly- the parasites, the stress from shipping+ plus the exposure to other diseases along the way. But with luck & in the right hands...:please:

Your vet also seems to jump to the most scary conclusions before testing- first it was IBD, now Crypto. Maybe she's recently dealt with some very sad cases, but most doctors don't give patients such dire news without being sure.

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He still has that fuzzy in him, which is good. He's obviously lean/thin, but still rounded, no dullness in appearance. But I also know how quickly things can change. I'd like to see if I can get another meal in him, assuming he keeps this one down

I don't think I've ever seen mucous in his stool. I know it could be easy to confuse a mostly digested meal from feces sometimes too....is that what you had in mind?

Thats essentially the issue for me with the vet.....the jumping to scary conclusions, and grim delivery of it ('all other options have been exhausted' type vibe). That's been a heavy contributer to my stress.

I had told myself I wouldn't get another WC snake. I didn't than on it either...but I saw him at an expo and went with it. I've never seen them at expos around here before.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Bear in mind most exotic vets don't deal with WC critters often, so they're looking for the contagious diseases most prevalent in CB populations. Folks who regularly deal with WC usually treat for parasites themselves instead of going to the vet as wormers are available over the counter.

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This has been a long learning process for sure...

I should have assumed to treat him after I brought him home, or when this started going down-hill. Wild caught snakes are uncharted territory for me, definitely nothing I'll be pursuing in the future either. I have a lot to learn.
I appreciate both of you continuing to give advice and feedback along the way with this. Deciding on how to go about this has been tough, so it's good to hear from others that have experiences with these types of things.

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Originally Posted by Awesomethepossum

He still has that fuzzy in him, which is good. He's obviously lean/thin, but still rounded, no dullness in appearance. But I also know how quickly things can change. I'd like to see if I can get another meal in him, assuming he keeps this one down

I don't think I've ever seen mucous in his stool. I know it could be easy to confuse a mostly digested meal from feces sometimes too....is that what you had in mind?

Thats essentially the issue for me with the vet.....the jumping to scary conclusions, and grim delivery of it ('all other options have been exhausted' type vibe). That's been a heavy contributer to my stress.

I had told myself I wouldn't get another WC snake. I didn't than on it either...but I saw him at an expo and went with it. I've never seen them at expos around here before.

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I'm so glad he's keeping the fuzzy down. :gj:

Not exactly. Regurges usually have some mucus coating them, as can feces from a sick snake. In the link for crypto that I provided in post #2, the article mentions that often mucoid diarrhea is noted in snakes suffering from crypto, due to the damage done to the digestive tract- & you might also see a tinge of blood too. So I'm glad that so far, you're not seeing that either.

As far as your vet's grim prognosis, perhaps it's just how she sees things ("glass half empty" vs. "glass half full")- plenty of doctors in all fields are a bit short on "bedside manners" & optimism.

I generally don't like to second-guess what vet's do- after all, we're paying them for their training & expertise- but unfortunately, sometimes you have to ask, & as their paying customer, we have a right to know what's going on with our pet, especially if something doesn't quite make sense, or isn't working.

W/C snakes aren't always a disaster, depending on where they're from, but W/C imports OFTEN are. :( And any W/C snakes that have been commercially shipped are very stressed also.

"Impulse buys" (or impulse-acquisitions/adoptions)- I think we've all been there...;)

Anyway, don't give up- It's not proven to be crypto & you still might 'win' this battle. :snake: Think positive!!!

Hey, how's he doing?

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

Hey, how's he doing?

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Sorry for the delayed response. I was actually meaning to give an update the other day but got distracted with work and miscellaneous life stuff. But I think a have a good amount to update with at this point

He's eaten 3 times for me since that refurg on 2/24 without issue.

Two live mouse fuzzies dusted in Nutribac, spread a week apart (can only special order them once a week), then on the 30th I sized it up and gave him a live mouse hopper, also dusted.

Worth noting, I started him on Panacur on 3/20, and since it's been 2 weeks, he got his second dose today.

Since it started, he's been out and about more. Meaning, he isn't just sitting under his hide being lethargic, he's been renovating his enclosure. Nothing frantic, just active at night. And I've seen him out sleeping in the open during the day as well.

I've also been doing thorough cleanings of his tub, water dish, and hide every 3 days at least, or whenever he uses the bathroom

His stool has been watery (started before the Panacur) but no blood and only a small amounts were present in prominently clear fluid. It does smell a bit, which started after the panacur. Today, the stool was solid, not watery at all. But only a small amount. Urates were white

He weighs the same as he did 2 weeks ago (150g). I can't complain, considering he's been eating small, spaced out meals. But, maybe I can increase the frequency now and put more focus on weight gain, since he hasn't had a regurg.

For this last live mouse hopper, his enthusiasm was refreshing and he didn't play any games about it. No defensive striking, or dodginess. He sucked it down. Haven't seen any abdominal swelling at all either




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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...6e40f19de5.jpg

I am thrilled to hear that things are going better for you & this beautiful snake- :gj: Maybe the first round of Panacur just didn't quite get the job done & this is just all he needs? Hang in there- snakes manage to survive a great deal in the wild, & I think the same can apply in captivity as long as we don't bombard their delicate bodies with "too many remedies" at once.

I asked about him a few days back when I noticed you were on the forum- sometimes "too busy" can't be helped. :snake:

I'm hoping this is gets it done. If his appetite and everything becomes solid again, I do worry about another "rebound". Just because of this poor guy's history of showing positive improvement, then going downhill again

Not sure if it would be too soon to offer food today. His basking temps are boosted up a few degrees and he's out and about. Not sure if that's because of the dewormer last night or if he's hungry. I guess there's only one way to find out.

To be safe, a 3rd dose in another 2 weeks seems appropriate. After that, I'll take a fecal in to the vet

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Originally Posted by Awesomethepossum

I'm hoping this is gets it done. If his appetite and everything becomes solid again, I do worry about another "rebound". Just because of this poor guy's history of showing positive improvement, then going downhill again

Not sure if it would be too soon to offer food today. His basking temps are boosted up a few degrees and he's out and about. Not sure if that's because of the dewormer last night or if he's hungry. I guess there's only one way to find out.

To be safe, a 3rd dose in another 2 weeks seems appropriate. After that, I'll take a fecal in to the vet

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To the best of my knowledge, the medication sort of stimulates (irritates) the stomach, which feels like hunger to the snake. I'm sure he needs the nutrition too, but hopefully by going a bit slow, he'll keep recovering & not "back-sliding". Fingers crossed here.

Update:

I gave Nicodemus his 3rd dose of Panacur last night. He was also in shed, but was struggling, so I had to switch him over to substrate. It's been hard keeping the humidity up in his tub and he was starting to look a bit dehydrated as well. I'm conflicted on whether I should switch him back off or not, now that he's done shedding.

He had a bowel movement with the shed, but it was hard to tell if there were worms in it, or if it was just some mucus. I'll need to touch base with the vet (I haven't spoken to them since the crypto talk) and get a fecal done.

I'm really hoping these three doses of Panacur will be enough to clean him out.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...485cd1ec8b.jpg

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I've never tried it but I suppose you could give him a "bed" of damp sponges instead of substrate.

Super delayed update. It's been ages since I posted on here and I wasnt sure if i was going to.. But, wanted to touch base if anyone was still curious.

My guy stopped having any issues since I last posted here earlier this year about the concerns for IBD or crypto. No diarrhea, weight loss, no regurgitations. Appetite was good, no weight loss, great body condition. Because of this, and because other separate, significant issues came up (financial, familial, personal health, another pet needed multiple surgeries) I didn't get back in touch with his vet. Which I don't feel great about, but here we are.

Then, over the past month, he started having foul-smelling, liquid diarrhea. So I booked an appointment a couple of weeks out for today.

I took him into a different vet office. I was really stressed about this, because I never got back in touch with that previous vet office, and this new one had recieved the last records about the talk of crypto, and his deteriorating health at the time, and I could tell they had feelings about this. I believe the offices work closely together. They did surgery on one of my ampbibians and were incredible, so I told them I just wanted their opinion as well.

They told me after taking him back for the exam, when they took him out to do the exam, they were confused because he's in perfect condition, he appeared bright, healthy, was alert, etc. But then he exploded diarrhea all over them.

The specialist collected all of it, said he had an abundance of protozoans and what appeared to be roundworms. I asked about crypto, and the exotics specialist said that it isn't ruled out, but also isn't setting off alarm bells for her because of his healthy physical condition, considering his symptom history and how long I've had him. She said that the other snakes that she's examinded that had it were wasting away. She said my guy looked perfect.

She said since he's been treated by the other vet already for worms, he had to have picked this stuff up another way after the fact? I was a bit confused by that.

So for now, they're sending out a fecal OP, a culture, and a gram stain.

She said the fecal results will likely be back by tomorrow, the cultures will take 1-2 weeks.

His couse of meds involve:
-Metronidazole (.06ml, oral) repeated every 48 hours. 4 doses total.
-Oxfendazole (.17ml, oral). One dose today, then again in 14 days.

She also advised I steam clean everything. I just ordered one, and I'm already feeling better having taken him into see them.

It's been a bit of a rollercoaster, but wanted to give that update.

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Given that it's been well over a year and your snake has good body condition with no regurgitations I think you can safely rule out crypto.

What most folks don't realize is that over time parasites develop their own resistance to wormers just like bacteria develop them for antibiotics. This is why your snake is being given two different wormers now, both of which are effective against the parasites he's carrying, and neither of which are Panacur.

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Originally Posted by bcr229

Given that it's been well over a year and your snake has good body condition with no regurgitations I think you can safely rule out crypto.

What most folks don't realize is that over time parasites develop their own resistance to wormers just like bacteria develop them for antibiotics. This is why your snake is being given two different wormers now, both of which are effective against the parasites he's carrying, and neither of which are Panacur.

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The original vet said he only had hookworms, which is why I'm confused.

I'm not sure where else he could have picked this other stuff up unless... he got it from those live feeders...


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I guess it would make sense then. Just didn't think of it at the time, since the priority was about getting food in him and he wouldn't eat anything except live mice at the time.

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Originally Posted by Awesomethepossum

...I'm not sure where else he could have picked this other stuff up unless... he got it from those live feeders...


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:yes: Most likely...And I'm very glad for your update- I've wondered & hoped you'd post. You've been thru a lot with this guy, but it sounds like you're winning "the war" (YAY!!!)- so now to get rid of his current parasites.

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Originally Posted by Bogertophis

:yes: Most likely...And I'm very glad for your update- I've wondered & hoped you'd post. You've been thru a lot with this guy, but it sounds like you're winning "the war" (YAY!!!)- so now to get rid of his current parasites.

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He's a champ.. I would have posted sooner, but he seemed to be doing okay, and I got distracted by unexpected stuff

Looking at him, you wouldn't know he had anything going on. Which is why I thought he was fine, until the nasty stool started a few weeks ago. I've worked animal control, in dog kennels, and in wildlife rehab...but this smell almost made me puke.

I'll say this cautiously, but it'll be nice to get him out of that quarantine tub, off paper towels and into an actual enclosure. He's been eating f/t for a while now-finally started taking again. So live rodents aren't necessary anyway. Looking forward to an end to this, for sure.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...28108985d4.jpg

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Well he's gorgeous & you took on quite a project with this guy, so :colbert2: to you! :D As they say, "this too shall pass"- :rolleyes: but until then, hold your nose.

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Originally Posted by Awesomethepossum

Super delayed update. It's been ages since I posted on here.....because other separate, significant issues came up (financial, familial, personal health, another pet needed multiple surgeries)....

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You're forgiven- ;) & that's "life" sometimes. A awful lot to deal with. I hope everything has calmed down now.

He does look amazing! Congratulations.

His fecal O&P test results came back. Lots of hookworm ova and larvae present (>30), as well as another parasite called blastocystis sp. (>30). Still waiting on the other results of the gram stain and cultures.

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Wow, that poor little snake! But with all your help, he's going to win this battle too- :gj: We never know what any little snake is hiding when we take them on. Neither of you deserved all this, but it was a lucky day for him when you bought him.