I did not want to hijack the thread that I saw this advice in

[Kris Mclaughlin]

All I can say is wow. That is great information to have thank you for the solution to one of the greatest questions in my house. My poor $50 phone is having a hemmorage trying to keep up with larger web pages, lol

[kitedemon]

nightrainfalls interesting, my concerns with paper products was never inks, but dioxins present in some papers. The papers in my area some are white paged others the typical grey. I would think this would be of larger concern. Dioxins are one of the 'dirty dozen' chemicals and cause all kinds of havoc on humans, and lab animals. I feel safe in believing that capitals reptiles are likely not immune either.

[nightrainfalls]

It is my understanding that Dioxins are produced during paper bleaching and discarded in effluent. The Dioxins then bio-accumulate in lipids inside animals. Most dioxin exposure comes from food. I apologize that I am not aware of any report suggesting newspaper contains dioxin or that it can accumulate in the body as a result of contact with paper. Your point is an interesting one, and I intend to look into it further. Thank you very much for raising the point.

David

[nightrainfalls]

I have spent the last fifty minutes or so researching the problems with dioxins in paper. It seems like dioxins are found primarily in papers bleached with chlorine. Newsprint is actually steamed, mechanically broken down, and bleached with peroxides, so dioxin should be very low in newsprint. http://www.weyerhaeuser.com/Business...t/PaperProcess I found one study that referenced dioxin levels in newspaper based on dioxin levels measured in the smoke of combusted newspaper. The study found that dioxin was present in the amount of .186ng/g. http://www.researchgate.net/publicat...vinyl_chloride) Nanograms are shocking small measurements, so finding less than 2/10s of a nanogram per gram suggests an incredibly small potential exposure, so Newsprint paper should not be a source of dioxin toxicity. Interestingly enough, coffee filters may be a significant contributor to dioxin exposure.

David

[nightrainfalls]

There are a few suppositions in your argument I don't buy, sorry.

Suppositions are uncertain beliefs, I am quite certain that Ball Pythons are indigenous to Africa, at that they have lived there many millions of years.

They don't use all the space in Africa for a start as you say.

Actually, I never said that. In fact I said almost exactly the opposite. Here is what I actually said, "Furthermore baby Ball Pythons have evolved a series of sophisticated behaviors that allow them to cope with large enclosures. They have become nocturnal to limit the time they are exposed to diurnal predators like birds, and they have developed a predilection for very small spaces. Baby Ball Pythons generally cram themselves into these small spaces in order to protect themselves from larger predators. Remember, when thinking about the enclosure that Ball Pythons live in naturally, there is no enclosure." Cramming oneself into the smallest space possible is not logically equivalent to using all the space in Africa. In fact, it is quite the opposite. The behavior is space avoidance mechanism. Again I am quite certain that Ball Pythons are largely nocturnal, and frequent small spaces that they use as hides, so there are no suppositions here either. I will however give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that you did not deliberately misrepresent what I said in order to create a straw man argument. I will assume that you just did not understand the point being made. I must have been unclear. I apologize for being unclear. This is my point: Ball Pythons have evolved to live without enclosures, since no enclosure is essentially an infinitely large enclosure, there is no way that an enclosure can be too large for a Ball Python. Ball Pythons adapt to too much space by seeking small spaces that provide refuge from the dangers of large spaces. As long as such small spaces are available, and husbandry conditions are met, the python will use natural coping strategies and acclimate to its environment.

Nor can we replicate the range of conditions it offers. So forget about it.

I never thought about it, so no need to forget about it. At no point in my post did I ever suggest that tanks should in any way replicate Africa. In fact I advocated the use of newspaper substrate and PVC hides. Neither of these things are particularly reminiscent of the wilds of Africa. Aside from keeping temperature and humidity in ranges that Ball Pythons evolved to deal with, nothing in my husbandry advice even came close to suggesting that it was desirable to replicate Africa. I did suggest that keepers might take advantage of long evolved behaviors that pythons use to deal with large spaces.

Any argument that starts with "In the wild" usually ends up with an idiot at both ends of it.

This is leaving a lot of field biologists scratching there heads wondering why they spend so much time studying ecology.

We basically try and emulate the hides and burrows they inhabit most of the time then eliminate the need to leave them for food.

Now on your other points it varies by snake to snake really. You are right in that most ball pythons will adapt readily to the environment if it has enough security, humidity and heat. However you do not need a particularly large enclosure to provide all that. In fact making it larger can cause problems in creating them.

And of course on forums you have to deal with the experience level of the keeper as well as the needs of the individual snake. It's perfectly true that your snake will tell you what it wants and needs if you listen to it but for the first couple of months it will be speaking in Klingon and you will be listening in radio waves.

Just my 2p worth.

I am not sure why we are discussing talking to snakes. I generally just set things up so the snake has choices and let the snake make its choices. I do not and never have claimed to know what the snake is thinking or saying. All I care about is making sure that the snake can choose parameters within its cage that suit it. As long as the snake has chosen a comfortable spot, and is doing well, I am happy. I am uncertain how the experience level of the keeper has an effect on what conditions the snake seeks out. Indeed it seems to me that since a less experienced keeper has less understanding of the snake, it is much more important for the new keeper to set up a safe range of temperature and humidity and then trust the snake to know what is best for it.

As the keeper becomes more advanced, he or she can experiment with alternative methods, narrow temperature and humidity ranges based on detailed notes of the snake preferences etc.

David