"Less than seasoned" snake owners

[KMG]

My big Blood, BP, and BRB are all trustworthy with kids.

Well being that you didn't know what you were recommending last night with the uth with temp dial and didn't know what a tstat was it appears as though you have not used a uth correctly. So you were recommending something with little knowledge of it to another new owner which could cause them to waste time, money, and effort in following advice with no validity.

[Skiploder]

I don't remember ever saying that I've never used the techniques you're talking about, in 2004 we owned a RTB, and we used all kinds of techniques with her. She grew to be 7 feet and was the only snake I'd ever known that liked children. That's where my fascination started. I live in an area where certain things, that people suggest, aren't available, so i suggest options that I know are available to me, and I'm told they're moronic ideas (not from you, but from others as well). The only exotic animal vet near me is almost 80 miles away, and the nearest reptile pet store is 4 miles from the vet, so I try to come up with options that may be a little unorthodox, but work. The "pet store" near me (about 2 miles) sells small animals and normal pet supplies but nothing for reptiles, and in an emergency, sometimes ordering online isn't an option.

Here are some general rules to abide by when answering questions:

If you've read about something that works - resist the urge to post.

If you've been practicing something for a short period of time and are ASSuming it works - resist the urge to post.

If you've been practicing something for a long period of time, have had long term success with it - share it with the group.

If you practiced something for a long period of time and it worked, but no longer practice it - discuss it as a viable option.

Refrain from discussing anything you aren't 100% familiar or experienced with.

Then a lot of bad information and confusion will cease to exist.

People who never have done something, people who parrot bad advice and people who seek to convert people to only one way of doing things just need to shut up.

In most cases, there are many effective ways to meet the husbandry requirements of most captive reptiles. If you are intent in making sure everyone does things your way and your way only...then you better make sure you've got thick skin.

Remember - many of the things people advise against doing can be done...they just may take more skill and experience. That does not mean you can't do it.

When you aren't talking to someone face to face, it's very hard to determine tone, humor, etc. This makes forums prime breeding ground for a lot of bruised egos and hurt feelings. Any emotional or interpersonal baggage tends to come out fairly quickly.

People often perceive insult where there is none, mainly because of insecurity.

Likewise people often get deeply hurt because they bring their low self esteem to the forum.

The best advice I can give you is to refrain from talking when you don't have something to say.

Refrain from talking unless you are sure about what you're talking about...and leave your emotional baggage at home.

..and refrain from ASSuming your snake likes anything other than being properly kept and cared for.

[salt]

For many years our species assumed that all other animals acted mechanically and had no feelings. Now popular opinion holds that there are many creatures that feel and form emotional bonds. While I like many will cringe at a lot of the anthropomorphism going on about peoples pets I also think it would be arrogant of us to assume that nothing is going on in a snakes brain. Birds have tiny brains with a structure very different from our own and yet we’ve been astounded at their capability to build a tools and solve problems.

While I think that snakes are simple creatures I postulate that the ability to feel enjoyment in something is a very basic and primitive system, but until we find a way to listen to an other creatures brain we can't say for sure what if anything is going on up there.

[Lizardlicks]

For many years our species assumed that all other animals acted mechanically and had no feelings. Now popular opinion holds that there are many creatures that feel and form emotional bonds. While I like many will cringe at a lot of the anthropomorphism going on about peoples pets I also think it would be arrogant of us to assume that nothing is going on in a snakes brain. Birds have tiny brains with a structure very different from our own and yet we’ve been astounded at their capability to build a tools and solve problems.

While I think that snakes are simple creatures I postulate that the ability to feel enjoyment in something is a very basic and primitive system, but until we find a way to listen to an other creatures brain we can't say for sure what if anything is going on up there.

... We aren't making assumptions though. We're basing this information off of scientific studies on snakes' brains. They are literally lacking those areas in the brain that produce and process higher, more complex emotions like anger, jealousy, affection etc. They do however experience more "primitive" emotions such as fear or pleasure, and can certainly come to associate this pleasure with specific people (say, the handler that feeds them all the time)!

[DVirginiana]

I tend to think people short-change snakes' intelligence as well. Not talking about anthropomorphizing them, but assuming that everything in their brains must be analogous to ours. For example, in that article you linked to, lizards are talked about as only slightly more intelligent than snakes when they've shown complex learning behavior that has only before been seen in primates. I'd link to the study but I'm not sure it'd be available for everyone (university library thing) so here's an article talking about the study.
http://www.livescience.com/48165-bea...imitation.html

My point is, it's probably a bit narrow to assume that just because a reptile is missing X part of the brain, that those functions are absent. If a human is missing a part of the brain, it can go a ridiculously long time without being treated because other regions (once thought to be specific to their functions) can take on the function of the missing piece. Last conference I was at, I talked to a group of herpetologists who were studying social relationships between litter-mates in the Agkistrodon genus and finding that there was recognition and interaction there that no one has ever actually analyzed before.
I don't expect a valentine's card from any of my reptiles, but I don't think we really know very much about exactly what different bits of the reptile brain might do.

[Lizardlicks]

I tend to think people short-change snakes' intelligence as well. Not talking about anthropomorphizing them, but assuming that everything in their brains must be analogous to ours. For example, in that article you linked to, lizards are talked about as only slightly more intelligent than snakes when they've shown complex learning behavior that has only before been seen in primates. I'd link to the study but I'm not sure it'd be available for everyone (university library thing) so here's an article talking about the study.
http://www.livescience.com/48165-bea...imitation.html

My point is, it's probably a bit narrow to assume that just because a reptile is missing X part of the brain, that those functions are absent. If a human is missing a part of the brain, it can go a ridiculously long time without being treated because other regions (once thought to be specific to their functions) can take on the function of the missing piece. Last conference I was at, I talked to a group of herpetologists who were studying social relationships between litter-mates in the Agkistrodon genus and finding that there was recognition and interaction there that no one has ever actually analyzed before.
I don't expect a valentine's card from any of my reptiles, but I don't think we really know very much about exactly what different bits of the reptile brain might do.

Yeah, they kind of lumped snakes and lizards all together which is roughly as silly as lumping in a sparrow with an african grey when talking about bird cognizant processing and emotional intelligence. Different species with in the same FAMILY can have wildly variant levels of intelligence and social behavior, much less with in the same CLASS. It's was a very reduced/streamlined article for casual browsers though, not an actually published study (which I seem to be having difficulty finding. My google-fu is not strong enough it would seem). I will pester biologist friend and see if they can steer me at something more in depth.

[Shann]

Going back to the first page for a minute here. I have occasionally come across the long time snake keeper that has the attitude of being better than everyone else. But that is extremely rare. Most of these long time keepers on sites like this are very experienced and know what they are talking about. More often I come across new keepers who've barely kept one snake for a couple of months thinking that they are qualified to give advice to anyone else. Or that they know their animal better, so therefore these experts can't really know what they are talking about. And this does far more harm. They aren't experienced enough to be advising others, and this can actually have a negative outcome. Ive seen a ton of "advice" given that could potentially harm an animal. I've kept reptiles for almost twenty years now, but I still won't hand out advice on species I haven't had experience with.

The other side to this is that keepers who have been keeping for a long time need to understand that they can always still learn. No one is perfect and they should always be open to new ideas. That's why I don't keep ferrets the same way I did twenty years ago.

[DVirginiana]

Yeah, they kind of lumped snakes and lizards all together which is roughly as silly as lumping in a sparrow with an african grey when talking about bird cognizant processing and emotional intelligence. Different species with in the same FAMILY can have wildly variant levels of intelligence and social behavior, much less with in the same CLASS. It's was a very reduced/streamlined article for casual browsers though, not an actually published study (which I seem to be having difficulty finding. My google-fu is not strong enough it would seem). I will pester biologist friend and see if they can steer me at something more in depth.

Ugh, Google is the worst for trying to find a specific study. Even Google scholar is kind of unreliable unless you know exact titles half the time.
But agreed, even among snakes there seems to be a big difference in intelligence. At the repticon I went to a couple weeks ago, someone had a cobra, and I swear it was systematically looking for weak spots in the caging; it was following a grid and only returning to the same spots after it had gone around the whole enclosure. I've never seen a snake do anything like that before. It's usually just kind of blind nosing along the edges, but that cobra seemed to actually have a system.

[Skiploder]

Ugh, Google is the worst for trying to find a specific study. Even Google scholar is kind of unreliable unless you know exact titles half the time.
But agreed, even among snakes there seems to be a big difference in intelligence. At the repticon I went to a couple weeks ago, someone had a cobra, and I swear it was systematically looking for weak spots in the caging; it was following a grid and only returning to the same spots after it had gone around the whole enclosure. I've never seen a snake do anything like that before. It's usually just kind of blind nosing along the edges, but that cobra seemed to actually have a system.

I keep varanids and heloderma...as well as tetsudo.

They are consider "intelligent" as far as reptiles go.

I have kept many species of snake.

Some appear to be more intelligent than others. Some people have credited some species of snake as more interactive and therefore assume a higher degree of intelligence.

A ball python that is fairly uninterested in it's surroundings is assumed to be less intelligent than the boomslang or cribo that is constantly moving about and checking things out.

But does this behavior indicate intelligence? Or is that our interpretation of more active behavior?

Cribos and boomslangs arte active hunters and roamers. Ball pythons are not. Behavior that is necessitated and dictated by a biological imperative does not equal intelligence. In that sense, a cobra, drymarchon, dispholidus, or hydrodynastes that (through exploration) has a greater level of recognition and eventual acceptance of it's keeper does not equal intelligence. I could make a better argument that it's an adaptive by-product of their instinctual behavior rather than true intelligence.

Having worked with varanids and heloderms has muted any expectations I have towards intelligence in snakes. By and large, snakes are pretty dumb. For example, given two water bowls, a heloderm will often bathe in one and not the other. It will defecate in the one it bathes in and not the second - which is why I offer all my beadeds two water bowls.

Many heloderms will also avoid fouling their den, and there is a fairly predictive propensity for them to poop in the same place every time.

I feed my varanids dubia roaches. They recognize what the feeding bowl means and have shown that they can differentiate between one bowl and the other.

With both groups there is a definite and acknowledged recognition of the keeper, an ability to grasp simple routine husbandry patterns and in general, behaviors that are easier to recognize (fear, begging, annoyance, comfort, etc.)

I have had snakes that I have bonded with due to need (namely older ones that need extensive specialized care). While they show an eventual acceptance of more intensive handling and care, it takes much longer than it would in a more intelligent and interactive animal. I become more a tool for achieving comfort and alignment with their husbandry needs than something they look forward to seeing or interacting with.

Conversely, my oldest exasperatum will scratch at the door of her enclosure whenever I walk into the snake house - regardless of whether it's feeding time or not. I have come to symbolize head scratchings, water sprayings, and jaunts into the yard. If I wander off from her while in the garden she will waddle over to get closer to me.

Same with our tortoises...they will actively greet me and my kids when we get near their enclosure.

With both species, there is a recognition that we are indeed other creatures that meet several needs - some vital, some pleasurable. Never had the same degree of experience with a snake...of any species.

[MontyAndMelissa]

I have a question for the persons talking about snake intelligence levels. Out of curiosity, how long do you think a snake can remember things? Such as a rescue -how long can it remember abuse and associate people in general with said abuse? Or being attacked by a rat? How long do you think they remember that rats bite? (That might be more of an instinct thing, but you catch my drift). I know humans have short- and long-term memory banks in their brains. Do snakes have these areas as well? Do they have the ability to learn things, such as door a has a hide behind it that will provide safety and door b does not? Just a sudden spark of curiosity.