Sulfur = Fire

[envy_ld50]

Not to get off topic here, but along the lines of what Tim is saying.......it might be prudent not to consolidate but to keep the sulfur and fire name tags.

Years ago I thought that black pastels should just be called cinnys so that we could keep things from getting confusing.
Now, especially after seeing many cinnys, black pastels, and crosses in person, I think it is a good thing that the different name tags stuck. To me, even though they look similar, some pewters made with a black pastel look distinctly different than pewters made with a cinny. IMO more work needs to be done with these two morphs and ALL the white snake combos to figure out exactly how things work......things may not be as simple as they appear right now.
As Tim mentioned, first fires and sulfurs have to be bred together to be proven compatible (which in my mind will happen but I have been wrong about plenty of things ). Then those "homozygous" animals need to be bred to normals to see what is produced.......then we will start to get some answers.
What if fires and sulfurs end up being alleles rather than two lines of the same exact mutation?

Just food for thought......

Joe,

Spot on! This is how I view the situation as well. Unfortunately the original breeder let the project leak before any of this had been done. I feel it is ethical to refer to this as a fire from both the sulfur and Flame Hypo standpoint! At this point in time everything is the same. I believe the Flame Hypo has been bred with the Davies fire. When we can prove that the sulfur is indeed it's own mutation or an allele of the fire we then can add extra tags to the baggage.

[PythonWallace]

I don't think I have seen that one. I bet it is HOT!!

Here is the thread with pictures: http://www.ball-pythons.net/forums/s...799#post902799

I don't know if this breeding has been done with the fire line, but since I can't afford a spector to make super stripes, I'm planning to get a sulfur to try for this 3 way combo.

[Joe_Compel]

I guess my point is why keep making the mutations more confusing with Sulfurs, Goblins, Flame Hypo's and whatever special "Lines" may exist? If you line has to be special throw your name on it for easier identification Ie: Envy's Line Fire. And let's say my line fire does prove unique in the long run I can then appropriate name it as a new mutation and anyone who purchased a Envy line fire knows they have this new mutation.

I have to agree.....it is getting confusing. While the unique names for similar looking animals may help sort stuff out when breedings don't turn out as expected, I can't imagine what it will be like four or five years from now with the way we are currently naming things.

If I am not mistaken, Dave and Tracy group some morphs into "complexes" in their book.....I just gave myself ANOTHER reason to look at that book again
It is a good idea that may help streamline or organize things.

[envy_ld50]

Eric's has really produced some of my favorite animals right there in that thread! I love the Black eye's and how well the mojave mixes as well.

[envy_ld50]

Joe,

Im not sure exactly which complex's they have listed but it's interesting. The BEL complex is still the biggest if im not mistaken.

[Joe_Compel]

Joe,

Spot on! This is how I view the situation as well. Unfortunately the original breeder let the project leak before any of this had been done. I feel it is ethical to refer to this as a fire from both the sulfur and Flame Hypo standpoint! At this point in time everything is the same. I believe the Flame Hypo has been bred with the Davies fire. When we can prove that the sulfur is indeed it's own mutation or an allele of the fire we then can add extra tags to the baggage.

Lol....I think you misunderstood what i meant. I don't see it as you do....I think the "extra tags" should stay right where they are until the morphs are proven to be compatible. The different names might actually have some merit. Maybe they are just very similar but will manifest themselves differently in crosses. If that is the case, then the different name tags will prove to be useful.

At this point, I do assume that the fire and sulfur are the same (the super forms look similar to me) but that is just my opinion......and my opinion doesn't really mean much until someone does the homework. It is just my opinion....not fact.

For what it is worth, I appreciate it when a breeder runs a project through the ringer to figure out all the twists and turns. But I can't fault a breeder for letting some snakes out before all questions are answered.......sometimes it just comes down to available space.....sometimes it comes down to time.....sometimes it comes down to money.

[EmberBall]

The original Sulfur female does not look like an adult Fire. Eric and I have had a recent discussion about it, and two options seem to be feasable. One, my female Sulfur could be the oldest het Black Eyed Lucy in existance, and maybe they all end up looking like her, when they get her age....she could be almost 20 years old. Second, she could have a hidden gene of some type. No Sulfur to original Sulfur breeding has been done yet.

The Sulfur story is already on a thread on BP-Net somewhere, so I am not going to go into it again.

I do not think the Sulfurs are more expensive than Fires?

If you do not like the name, feel free not to buy a Sulfur, or buy one, and change the name to Fire, once you receive it With me, it was not an ego thing, naming it...it was a convinient thing, for the simple fact that I proved out two similar looking females in 2005, and got tired of not knowing which project people were emailing me about. There is alot more too the story, the reasoning behind the naming, and there is alot of False or just misinformed information floating around...If you have a question, feel free to post it, one at a time, and I will answer it to the best of my ability.

Dave

[envy_ld50]

Lol....I think you misunderstood what i meant. I don't see it as you do....I think the "extra tags" should stay right where they are until the morphs are proven to be compatible. The different names might actually have some merit. Maybe they are just very similar but will manifest themselves differently in crosses. If that is the case, then the different name tags will prove to be useful.

At this point, I do assume that the fire and sulfur are the same (the super forms look similar to me) but that is just my opinion......and my opinion doesn't really mean much until someone does the homework. It is just my opinion....not fact.

For what it is worth, I appreciate it when a breeder runs a project through the ringer to figure out all the twists and turns. But I can't fault a breeder for letting some snakes out before all questions are answered.......sometimes it just comes down to available space.....sometimes it comes down to time.....sometimes it comes down to money.

In my opinion it is easier to add additional information on a morph at any point in time than it is to take it away. For example: If a potential buyer were to buy a "Sulfur" from me and it then proved out to be the same as a fire, technically they would not get the actual animal they purchased! I try to think of things from multiple perspectives.

I personally would not be able to sell a sulfur if I had them as it's own morph only because it has not been PROVEN. Davies has done the work and proven his line. He held back the animals and made sure they were a new morph. Again I would love to be the person with the a unique looking snake that may be a mutation. I would PROVE said snake to be unique in some sort of factor before actually applying a name and selling the animal.

As breeder, it is our job to do these? things if we want to avoid this cluster! When I sell an animal it 100% has to be proven to be what I call it. That's just how I feel. On the reverse if we apply these tags and new names to unproven animals and flood them on the market what are we achieving but self gain? We get credibility for the morph and initial market exclusivity?

[Joe_Compel]

The original Sulfur female does not look like an adult Fire. Eric and I have had a recent discussion about it, and two options seem to be feasable. One, my female Sulfur could be the oldest het Black Eyed Lucy in existance, and maybe they all end up looking like her, when they get her age....she could be almost 20 years old. Second, she could have a hidden gene of some type. No Sulfur to original Sulfur breeding has been done yet.

Hey Dave,
Did the founding female kind of look like what used to be called a burgundy? If remember the correct girl.......she was pretty.

Hidden genes????? AAAHHHHH.......that would be a reason to distinguish fires from sulfurs....

Big congrats to you and Eric by the way.....awesome snakes.

[sg1trogdor]

I understand whats being said and agree to an extent but I will never have either so I don't care lol. On the serious side though I do agree that sulphers and fires are probably the same thing just diffrerent lines thats all someone needs to breed a fire and sulpher and see if they are compatible. that would help prove your argument but not entirely example being the lesser and mojo lesser x lesser = bel, lesser x mojo = bel