Sulfur = Fire

[slangman]

i see where you are all coming from but i just loose track of all the different morphs that to me look the same and produce the same supers so i think some kind of amalgamation with the original should take place. Sure the sulphur comes from an unrelated animal to the original fire but if it is so similar (to me the same but i am not that clued up on royals so am only giving my opinion all be it a totally amateur one) then surely linking it to the first proven morph name would make sense. I dont wanna upset the founders of the sulphur etc but surely if you have proven a morph that has already been done , how can you justify calling it something completly new ? I just think it is trying to make a name for ones self (and there is no harm doing this as i would love the oportunity myself) from something that has already been done . I would prefer for the lines to be named or even linked to the original say for example a sulphur fire or ember fire so as they can be told apart according to their lines .The way i see it is if i get some royals from a shipment out of africa and breed two normal looking animals and get say an albino . Then cos it isnt related to anyone elses , i get the chance to call it something else like a cladiscope royal ?? I dont see how someone can call something a new morph or name just cos it doesnt come from the same original animal as somebody elses . Surely the fire/ember/sulphur gene could well be the same gene (as it is a very variable gene and i aint saying anyone elses is better than the others here) and could ,or in my opinion most certainly does ,come from the very same locality in africa where this gene has mutated .

sorry if this undermines anyones efforts as this isnt my intention , i just felt i would express my opinion .

Cheers

Nik

[RandyRemington]

Say for example the albino boas have their lines names after the khal strain and the Sharp strain . So if these sulphur and ember and Fire are bred together and proven to be compatible then i would for one be happy to call them what they would be (Fires) and simply differentiate the lines by their owners or founders or even a specific breeders name .

I don't keep up on boas very well but aren't Kahl and Sharp albino lines incompatible? But as Bill pointed out even being compatible might not mean they are exactly the same thing. Mojave and Lesser are compatible and I think by now most everyone agrees they are distinctly different mutations even if they do happen to be mutations of the same gene. Lesser and Butter are an example where there is some disagreement if the mutations are actually different or not.

But back on subject, right now it doesn't sound like any of these (fire, sulfur, ember) have been bred together so while the homozygous sulfur sure does look like a homozygous fire we still really don't have good evidence that they are even compatible. I think it's quite likely they will be compatible but we still don't know for sure and they needed a name for the years before we get an informed consensus as to if they are the exact same or just similar and perhaps even compatible mutations.

[EmberBall]

Rehashing the whole naming scenario has gotten old, but if you do a search, you can probably find the thread where I spelled it out. You can have your opinions on how I should have handled MY project, but what is done is done, over with 3 years ago. Do you honestly think saying the same thing over and over and over and over and over is going to change anything. Some of you don't think I should have named it, but you also don't know the whole story, which, has been written down a few times, and is a long story, and don't feel the need to repeat everything I have said on one thread, just because another thread pops up, and asks the same questions. If those of you who don't feel there should be a separation between any of the Het Black Eyed Lucies, when YOU get your own line, feel free to call it a Fire.

Using an albino is a weak arguement, obviously an Albino is an Albino, BUT, what if someone assumed the Lavender was just an Albino, and never made the separation? So, let's take the Pied, if I hatched out a Pied, from some low white ringer looking Pet Store animal, I would have called it a Pied.

It is not so easy when it comes to YB's (hence the Goblin), Cinns and Black Pastels, Vanillas (yup, two Vanilla lines, two different names), because as new animals, they are not easy to identify 100%, like the Pied. Even though the Ember's looked similar to a Fire, with a head pattern similar, but WAY more yellow, there was no way to call them a Fire before they proved out with a Super. If you think a small time breeder is going to have a 3-5 year project, and keep back EVERY animal until it is proven out completly, just to satisfy a handful of bashers, you are kidding yourself. It has been said over and over again, what if no Spider was ever sold before a Super was proven or disproven? Woud anyone have a Spider even now, other than Kevin? I cannot think of a single morph that was kept back until a Super was proven.

[EmberBall]

Sulfur story is on post #20, of Wetceal's thread titled Pastel and Pastel Sulfur comparison. For that thread, just do a search in here on Sulfur Ball.

Dave

[slangman]

Rehashing the whole naming scenario has gotten old, but if you do a search, you can probably find the thread where I spelled it out. You can have your opinions on how I should have handled MY project, but what is done is done, over with 3 years ago. Do you honestly think saying the same thing over and over and over and over and over is going to change anything. Some of you don't think I should have named it, but you also don't know the whole story, which, has been written down a few times, and is a long story, and don't feel the need to repeat everything I have said on one thread, just because another thread pops up, and asks the same questions. If those of you who don't feel there should be a separation between any of the Het Black Eyed Lucies, when YOU get your own line, feel free to call it a Fire.

Using an albino is a weak arguement, obviously an Albino is an Albino, BUT, what if someone assumed the Lavender was just an Albino, and never made the separation? So, let's take the Pied, if I hatched out a Pied, from some low white ringer looking Pet Store animal, I would have called it a Pied.

It is not so easy when it comes to YB's (hence the Goblin), Cinns and Black Pastels, Vanillas (yup, two Vanilla lines, two different names), because as new animals, they are not easy to identify 100%, like the Pied. Even though the Ember's looked similar to a Fire, with a head pattern similar, but WAY more yellow, there was no way to call them a Fire before they proved out with a Super. If you think a small time breeder is going to have a 3-5 year project, and keep back EVERY animal until it is proven out completly, just to satisfy a handful of bashers, you are kidding yourself. It has been said over and over again, what if no Spider was ever sold before a Super was proven or disproven? Woud anyone have a Spider even now, other than Kevin? I cannot think of a single morph that was kept back until a Super was proven.

sorry if i was asking questions you have already answered . as you probably noticed from my post count , and as i have stated above, i am new to the world of balls and was only saying what i thought . I didnt mean to upset you all , i just type as i see it . Maybe the albino was a poor example but i think it offers an example that if 1 albino looks like another(and a sulphur looks like a fire-to me anyways) then its and albino (as the sulphur apears to me to be a fire) . sory if you think otherwise and i will have a look for your previous thread so that i can hopefully understand the differences . this is just how i see it . Maybe i am wrong for sure but its how i see the snakes from the pics . I have fires myself that appear very different from each other and hence why i stated the gene is variable . These 2 animals are from the same fire sire to 2 different females . The one is a cb female and the other is a wc female . The babies look different but are still fires . Can i assume otherwise and call them another name cos the female was WC and maybe she has a hidden gene that has added to the fire and created a new morph . no its a fire , just one that has more yellow than the other .

[Bill Buchman]

I am with Bill on this one. Slightly different looking animals that may or may not be the same from completely different origins should have different names. On the other hand I am getting tired of all of the combo morph names. Why can’t a Pastel Fire just be called a Pastel Fire instead of a Fire Fly?

The name thing!!! It is problematic -- but will it get worse no matter what we do?

We are a only few years away from 5 and 6 gene animals being produced by not a few people. When that happens could it actually be easier to remember a goofy name somebody threw on an animal rather than naming ALL 6 morphs presenting in the snake? Has anyone tried it
Let's see -- I'll just do 6 for starters. How about a Clown-Enchi-Lesser-Lavender-Caramel-Ghost. Ahhhhh Riiiight??? What about 7, 8, 10 genes. Right now the arbitrary name thing seems more difficult -- but think down the road a bit. I think we can ALL AGREE -- it is a nice problem to look forward to.

I was lucky enough to be faced with the naming the dilemma this past season. The Butter-Yellow belly was a no-brainer. The Bumble Belly had been done. The "Belly" lends itself to include the morph in a name that makes sense.

The Butter-Cinnamon was not as simple. I had ZERO problem naming it a...Butter Cinnamon. But I WOULD have had a problem with someone making one next season not respecting my "base morph" choice and assigning a name on it and have the name stick!!! I would find that rude. Using parts of each did not seem to work -- Bunny, Binny, Cutter, Cinnabutt, Cinner, Cinnabun???

I chose Lithium based on my girl's silvery eye color. I guess it is an O.K name. For now, I suppose i will continue to hold an "arbitrary name policy".

And even if I give an animal a silly-goofy-nonsensical name...at least it will be MY silly-goofy-nonsensical name.

[EmberBall]

If you have a CB Fire, from Davies line, and breed it to a female, WC or not, the Fire type offspring can be assumed to be Fires. If you breed a Fire male to a WC Fire type female, and get Black Eyed Lucies, call the offspring Fires, or whatever you want.

My breeding was a different sitiuation. First, Fires were the new "it" morph to have, producing the Holy Grail of Balls at the time, The Lucy. I did not have a spare $40K male Fire hanging around to breed to my female (s), to quickly prove the females out. I also had zero help from the people who had Fires, for the obvious reasons...protect their investment. Had I done a Fire to my female as the first breeding, and produced a Lucy, I would have probably called the offspring, and the original female, a Reid line Fire, or, might have still called them something with a Fire theme if I thought calling them Fires was going to cause a problem. I want to reiterate, the fact that NOBODY said, from day one, those ARE Fires. The first opinion on the Ember, which was the first two of the females to produce, was some type of Co Dom Hypo, not a Fire, but an actual Co Dom Ghost if you will. I even put a post up on KS saying new line of Hypo. I am not saying any of the first Fire owners were bad guys, I am just saying, based on a $40K per snake price tag on the original Fires, nobody was in a hurry to help me figure my snakes out, especially if it meant another way to get a Black Eyed Lucy, and possibly cut into their sales. Remember, at this time, Lucies were $200K, and VERY sought after.

What is done is done, and I am proud of what Eric S. and I have accomplished with the Sulfur. Like it or not, the name seems to have stuck, and I will not be changing anything. I will not be breeding Sulfur x Fire either, since I do not have one of Davies animals. I am sure it will be done soon enough though.

Dave

[MarkS]

Your position is a valid and arguable. However, I would submit that the heat which has been generated by the Fire/Sulfer conflict is a perfect example of why more is better.

Do we think that Mr. Davies is going to position himself to purport the Fire and Sulfer as the same morph -- I highly doubt it -- and I would SUPPORT his position.

I hesitate to discuss anyone elses project, so I'll use one of mine as an example. I proved an animal which I named Het Cajun. If I were to group it with an existing morph, the Het Red, Lori Ball, Black Lace are the 3 that come to mind -- there may be more. The captive hatched foundation female that produced for me last season has NO connection to the similar morphs mentioned.

Let's say also, for argument's sake, that my Het Cajun is a prettier base morph, makes a better super, and is FAR better in combos. Or the reverse all of that -- say any one of the others is clearly the best in all those important areas. Why would the breeder with the 'better" animal want to be linked in name with the others?

I believe, based on what I have observed, most ball python people don't seem to expend the energy needed when paying attention to lines of the same morph -- at least to the extent required to address the differentiation issue at hand.

More names makes sense because it is EASIER for most people in the hobby. I don't feel that compatibility necessarily makes morphs the same -- it just makes them compatible. But I could be mistaken...

I agree with Bill, up to a point. The question for me though is, where do you draw the line? Like Bill, I'm also working on a mutation from a wild caught male ball that produces a visibly odd looking trait that could very well turn out to be another line of Het red axanthic or a Lori ball or whatever. I've also got a friend who has a female that she suspects is also a het red axanthic, not from the original woods line. I've got another line of ball python that also throws different looking offspring that seems to carry some of the traits of the sulfurs or the fires. so how many different lines of similar mutations could be supported before it crashes down under the weight of all the names? I suspect that in the end it won't matter as it'll be the future consumers that decide which names will stick and which names will eventually disappear.