I didnt know where to put this... selfish or not? (Long Post)

[Soord]

So i got in a giant argument with a person i don't know on the internet last night. For some reason they really pushed my buttons and i kept coming back to it. It started because I jokingly posted that I would start a crowdfunding project to buy a female banana i saw on morph market so i can get her AND the black head i was already planning on getting. This person responded saying "i hope your joking, people use crowdfunding for necessities". I made the mistake of instigating the argument by giving a response that said I was indeed joking, that i they dont necessarily know my motives and i could want the snake for business or mental health or something, and that crowdfunding was made so someone can put out a goal and then other people can choose to give money or not. This started a really long and time wasting argument between me and some person about this. We both made mistakes, them not knowing how the banana gene worked and saying it was "VERY rare for a female to hatch at all", me saying that morphmarket is more popular than kingsnake or fauna based on recommendations i usually see on here. All in all, the argument boiled down to a few key points which i will summarize here.

They said i was selfish and in me posting the crowdfunding for a new snake i was taking away the opportunity for people to get help when they actually need it. I mention that there are different categories, so it wont be next to actual health/necessity needs they would be by things such as goals for trips etc, and that many of the necessities were scams anyway (id like to see a study on how much are scams and how much arent, i personally do contribute to some i see on the news or from friends/internet friends). I also say that i am putting a goal out there and other people are choosing to give money to that cause and i shouldn't be called selfish for it just making it known that that is what i was working toward and saying that i will accept donations. They called me a beggar and said that it was not other peoples responsibility to pay for my snake, in which my response was that I didnt expect anyone to pay for it it would be nice if i got some help but i wasnt expecting anything, meaning i wasnt making it a responsibility (which i have issue with even saying donating toward needs/necessities is a responsibility because really it boils down to choice) it would just help me get a snake faster than planned.

They said the ball market is dead so making money off of it is not a thing (aka that i would lose a decent amount of money). They then used the fact that they breed corns as an example, I said that it was just an example on "why" to crowdfund not that i necessarily cared about making money. Also I said that breeders do make some money especially if they have multiple gene offspring, but again, that i dont care about making money. I then mention that the corn and ball market/ prices are tough to compare because they dont have the same prices or demand.

From this there spawned a discussion about Banana's specifically. They said that they have seen many males for < 100$ and that they will lose all their value (have already begun) and females will sell for 150 with a max of 200 in a year or two and males would be < 100 (and that they already are). I didnt believe them, even at local prices about the males <100. The absolute lowest ive seen a single gene male banana go for is 199$ and i could see a 150$ from local. but under 100$? Is this an actual price that bananas are at in places? They arent that price in my market at all going from 175-250+ for single gene depending.

There was also mention about "if you cant afford owning a snake you shouldnt buy it". I responded by saying i have money for the vet, i had extra food, i had extra enclosures/heat, and i was talking specifically about the face value of the snake because I was also buying a black head soon and wanted to get both at a similar time which, as yall probably know, a banana and a black head together can get pricey. I also have the potential to get the snake at a later date (like money wise), in this theoretical scenario i was just joking that posting the crowd funding to get the snake faster than i could by myself (not that i couldnt afford it).

TLDR; I wanted to have an actual discussion about this in a non heated environment. Many things were said (including them accusing me of loving bhb and snakebytetv, saying i shouldnt breed because i didnt know the market, and me saying they were misinformed about the banana gene and prices) so i figured id post it here in a non heated environment for some actual discussion. My questions are, would it be selfish to post a gofundme about getting a snake baby (or any other herp)? is it right to get a snake using someone else's gifts? Is the ball market dead? Is there such things as a banana < 100$? What do you think about kingsnake vs morph vs fauna? any other comments on this topic (other than how i was an idiot for fighting about a fictional scenerio with a stranger for a long time... i already know that )?

[Soord]

I should mention that I'm not actually posting one I was mostly joking

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[CptJack]

Ball pythons morphs depreciate hard, especially single genes.

Thst said, people crowd sourcing can use it for whatever they want, people can donate or not, but the truth is people asking for things that are 'wants' (honeymoons, weddings... Snakes) has made many people less likely to believe or donate in other situations that are things like medical bills, funeral expenses, or saving the house. I see convos about that in other forums all the time and it boils down to getting sick of seeing hands out everywhere and becoming irritated with the whole concept. When they had and have donated in the past.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

This is not gonna be heated but this will be the truth

would it be selfish to post a gofundme about getting a snake baby

It's not selfish, it just makes the person part of the group of people who feel entitled (the GIVE me crowd), I personally prefer seeing people taking pride in working hard and earning what they have instead of seeing people looking for handouts.....than again I guess the easy way is better for some. (BTW some people actually do this)

Is the ball market dead?

According to people the sky has been falling for a decade yet, their are more people coming to the hobby each year. The market has evolved as it always will, the people claiming the market is dead are those that lack the commitment, work ethic, passion and the people who haven been incapable to evolve with the market. Yes the price drop and always will but the same drop in rices allow more people to buy snakes that were once out of reach.

Is there such things as a banana < 100$?

There will be it's inevitable, supply and demand.

What do you think about kingsnake vs morph vs fauna?

Kingsnake and Fauna have been here a LONG time and offer things that Morphs Market does not offer, Morphs Market is a great tool much more user friendly whether it is on the customer or seller's end. All are a great tools to advertise and sell.

[Nellasaur]

Personally, while I wouldn't mind donating to a campaign to get a snake as a companion or therapy animal, I don't think I would be comfortable donating to someone who wants to buy a breeding animal. That's just my personal opinion. I don't think you're intrinsically in the wrong for attempting to crowdfund a snake for a breeding project, the platform can be used for anything you want, but I wouldn't want to put money into a goal intended to eventually make someone else money. Now, if you were offering a first pick of the hatchlings or a discount on offspring to your hypothetical funders, that would be different, that would be paying in for a potential future return and wouldn't sit weird with me. But asking for money for a snake that you're capable of affording on your own just because you want to have it sooner... yeah, that strikes me as a little selfish.

That said, I also think asking people to crowdfund vacations/trips/other non-necessities is also kind of selfish. I wouldn't donate to those campaigns either. But is it still a legitimate use of the crowdfunding platform? Sure. Is your hypothetical snake campaign a valid use too? Sure. Just because I think it's selfish and wouldn't donate doesn't mean you're in the wrong for wanting to give it a try (hypothetically).

[Soord]

Ball pythons morphs depreciate hard, especially single genes.

Thst said, people crowd sourcing can use it for whatever they want, people can donate or not, but the truth is people asking for things that are 'wants' (honeymoons, weddings... Snakes) has made many people less likely to believe or donate in other situations that are things like medical bills, funeral expenses, or saving the house. I see convos about that in other forums all the time and it boils down to getting sick of seeing hands out everywhere and becoming irritated with the whole concept. When they had and have donated in the past.

Yeah I figured as much. This type of thinking is really strange to me. I personally am more wary of health problems and mortgages and stuff that are fake or where people start them and don't put the money toward that. I also would donate double to a problem because I feel bad for putting money toward something trivial like a snake. I guess this one is a difference of opinion thing and highly depends on your perceptions of the people that use crowdfunding.

Ball pythons morphs depreciate hard, especially single genes.

Thst said, people crowd sourcing can use it for whatever they want, people can donate or not, but the truth is people asking for things that are 'wants' (honeymoons, weddings... Snakes) has made many people less likely to believe or donate in other situations that are things like medical bills, funeral expenses, or saving the house. I see convos about that in other forums all the time and it boils down to getting sick of seeing hands out everywhere and becoming irritated with the whole concept. When they had and have donated in the past.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[Soord]

This is not gonna be heated but this will be the truth

It's not selfish, it just makes the person part of the group of people who feel entitled (the GIVE me crowd), I personally prefer seeing people taking pride in working hard and earning what they have instead of seeing people looking for handouts.....than again I guess the easy way is better for some. (BTW some people actually do this)

According to people the sky has been falling for a decade yet, their are more people coming to the hobby each year. The market has evolved as it always will, the people claiming the market is dead are those that lack the commitment, work ethic, passion and the people who haven been incapable to evolve with the market. Yes the price drop and always will but the same drop in rices allow more people to buy snakes that were once out of reach.

There will be it's inevitable, supply and demand.

Kingsnake and Fauna have been here a LONG time and offer things that Morphs Market does not offer, Morphs Market is a great tool much more user friendly whether it is on the customer or seller's end. All are a great tools to advertise and sell.

Does this apply for people not looking for handouts, but just putting the opportunities there? I personally think the difference is that asking for handouts and begging is an active thing, where this would be a passive thing. I argued so much because I personally don't think I'm lazy or a give me person for even considering it and my differences between active and passive gave me a different perspective.

And I know banana prices will drop inevitably the reason I argued then so much at that point was that they said theyve seen them (multiple) at that price now

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[Soord]

Personally, while I wouldn't mind donating to a campaign to get a snake as a companion or therapy animal, I don't think I would be comfortable donating to someone who wants to buy a breeding animal. That's just my personal opinion. I don't think you're intrinsically in the wrong for attempting to crowdfund a snake for a breeding project, the platform can be used for anything you want, but I wouldn't want to put money into a goal intended to eventually make someone else money. Now, if you were offering a first pick of the hatchlings or a discount on offspring to your hypothetical funders, that would be different, that would be paying in for a potential future return and wouldn't sit weird with me. But asking for money for a snake that you're capable of affording on your own just because you want to have it sooner... yeah, that strikes me as a little selfish.

That said, I also think asking people to crowdfund vacations/trips/other non-necessities is also kind of selfish. I wouldn't donate to those campaigns either. But is it still a legitimate use of the crowdfunding platform? Sure. Is your hypothetical snake campaign a valid use too? Sure. Just because I think it's selfish and wouldn't donate doesn't mean you're in the wrong for wanting to give it a try (hypothetically).

It's funny because I gave an example like that that with tiers like a kickstarter project and asked if it was still okay and they argued about my prizes and not if it is the same situation.

And that was kind of the thing I was arguing for in a way? I was saying that I wouldn't be making the person give me money it would be completely up to them. I personally differentiate selfishness based off impact and whether it is active or passive. I feel like a snake is low impact (where a scam is high impact) and a passive crowdfund (not lying and say I need the snake, not plastering over all social media and forums ever, not even saying I can't afford it ever just that I'm doing it for a bump) I don't think it's very selfish at all. I attribute it to having an Amazon/steam/some type of X-mas wish list and someone deciding to pick something up off it for you. I'm not disagreeing with you though, and I can totally see how you and others can think that way. Especially now that I'm cooled down

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[Snoopyslim]

Soord - how old are you?

No you were not being selfish but you're not acting like an adult either. You are a new member and new to snakes? Why not give it a while and save up some money and slowly dip your feet into the hobby to warm them up... I think there is A LOT more to breeding and learning morphs ect. and you have a lot to learn. I think the very experienced breeders maybe make a little bit of money or if you produce a new morph you might get a big payout but I don't think every breeder is getting rich. Sounds like the both of you didn't really know the subject matter you were arguing about very well.

If someone needs money for a medical purpose I am okay with that or maybe for a sports field trip or girl guides, food... things along those lines but the people who are out there asking people to fund them for new pets, trips, cars....that's super lame in my opinion...get a job!

[Stewart_Reptiles]

Does this apply for people not looking for handouts, but just putting the opportunities there? I personally think the difference is that asking for handouts and begging is an active thing, where this would be a passive thing.

Seems to me that your hypothetical scenario sound more and more like you wanting someones approval.

There is no difference between active and passive, it's still asking for money, someone else's hard earned money.

An opportunity would be for someone to invest in a business, not the case here it would be someone giving you money for YOU to benefit from it.

You can call it whatever you want , an opportunity, something passive......it's still a handout, the difference is by calling it something else it makes you feel better, personally when I accomplish something I like to know that I did it on my own because of my hard work not because of someone else's.....than again I am old school and believe in hard work, not entitlement and free stuffs because I am special