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  1. #1
    Registered User Running Elk's Avatar
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    Prevalence of IBD?

    I rescued a little Nicaraguan boa the other day. She's very tiny (at two years old) and wasn't properly cared for. Otherwise, she seems healthy. That doesn't mean anything in reference to IBD per se.

    Does *anyone* know the actual prevalence of IBD in boas? I have always wanted some boas, but I'm terrified to keep them, because I have a beloved collection of balls that is irreplaceable. I've heard anywhere between rare to ALL boas (I know the latter isn't true) and anywhere in between.

    Right now, the little lady is on a different floor in a different room from my BPs. I handle her and shower, and don't touch my BPs for at least 12 hours.

    It's driving me *insane*. The paranoia is taking the fun out of what should be a fun pet.

    Ideally, I'd like to eventually keep her in the same rack system as my BP collection. She will more than likely stay very tiny from what I understand about her, her age, locale, and her upbringing.

    I contacted Dr. Jacobson, who has studied IBD at the University of Florida. He basically said I should be concerned, and have two tests done. The blood test seems inaccurate -- he said more often then not "he sees false negatives more than false positives". That's an unnerving prospect.

    Has anyone had the blood test done on their boas? What is the process, your experiences, etc (please share)?

    How worried should I be about this situation?

  2. #2
    BPnet Lifer Sauzo's Avatar
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    I say do the normal quarantine and go from there. I keep both my boas with my BP and all is fine. I wouldn't say IBD is that common or at least I haven't heard a lot of people having problems with it. The thing when someone does have a problem with it, you definitely hear about it on the forums but its the minority imo. Now boas can be carriers for it as in they have it but don't ever show signs. The only way to find out is put a BP with them and see what happens to the BP as its fatal in pythons. Also I think a lot of people who claim their snake has IBD might have something else like an overheated snake which cause neurological disorders too and people instantly jump to IBD. As far as I know, there is no sure fire way to check for IBD in a living boa. I think the only way is either take a liver sample which again I'm not sure on, I think I read it somewhere or a 100% way to check is like I said, put the boa in contact with a ball python for a bit under your supervision and then see if the BP dies in a few days as IBD is quick and fatal in pythons. Cruel but the only 100% way I know of. But also like I said, I don't think IBD is really as common as some people make it out to be. look at all the breeders that breed boas and pythons, you don't really hear about many IBD breakouts wiping out collections, think I read about 2-3 in the past 10-20 years. But at the end of the day, it's your collection and your choice.
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  3. #3
    BPnet Lifer Skiploder's Avatar
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    Re: Prevalence of IBD?

    Quote Originally Posted by Running Elk View Post
    I rescued a little Nicaraguan boa the other day. She's very tiny (at two years old) and wasn't properly cared for. Otherwise, she seems healthy. That doesn't mean anything in reference to IBD per se.

    Does *anyone* know the actual prevalence of IBD in boas? I have always wanted some boas, but I'm terrified to keep them, because I have a beloved collection of balls that is irreplaceable. I've heard anywhere between rare to ALL boas (I know the latter isn't true) and anywhere in between.

    Right now, the little lady is on a different floor in a different room from my BPs. I handle her and shower, and don't touch my BPs for at least 12 hours.

    It's driving me *insane*. The paranoia is taking the fun out of what should be a fun pet.

    Ideally, I'd like to eventually keep her in the same rack system as my BP collection. She will more than likely stay very tiny from what I understand about her, her age, locale, and her upbringing.

    I contacted Dr. Jacobson, who has studied IBD at the University of Florida. He basically said I should be concerned, and have two tests done. The blood test seems inaccurate -- he said more often then not "he sees false negatives more than false positives". That's an unnerving prospect.

    Has anyone had the blood test done on their boas? What is the process, your experiences, etc (please share)?

    How worried should I be about this situation?
    As far as prevalence goes, there are two things to keep in mind:

    (1) the prevalence as a function of boas being asymptomatic carriers.
    (2) the prevalence as a function of boas actually becoming symptomatic.

    Last time I checked on the literature, almost a third of all boas are thought to be asymptomatic carriers - which mean they harbor the virus but do not yet suffer from the effects. Some claim that number to be even higher. Many of those snakes will remain carriers and never develop the disease.

    ...and there is no literature as to how many asymptomatic carriers eventually develop into symptomatic victims.

    There is also no proof that it strikes pythons quicker than boas or that pythons cannot also remain asymptomatic for an undefined period of time. Many of the early stories of IBD ravaging ball python collections (some of the most famous ones) were later found to be other diseases.

    As for testing...the blood test is the least intrusive method. Other methods on living animals involve biopsies and are limited by the simple fact that if the inclusion bodies are not in the biopsied organ, it cannot be detected.

    Many years ago I had two tarahumara boas that were diagnosed with IBD...one was symptomatic, one was not. The symptoms were mild - lack of appetite and anorexia. I had to pay for several biopsies to diagnose the first snake. I had both euthanized. None of my pythons ever came down with the disease or tested positive for it.

    As with many reptile maladies, the extent of the problem is undefined - mainly because this hobby seems rife with people who don't feel the need to take their animals to a proper vet (if they go at all) or have necropsies done on animals that pass away.

    This has also led to the plethora of misinformation on IBD. Someone loses a large collection of ball pythons over a short period of time to a virulent disease. They take it to a vet that is less than informed on reptiles and the first thing that gets tossed out there is IBD. Since the symptoms of IBD cover the spectrum of just about every viral or bacterial malady that affects snakes, IBD is labeled as the culprit without any proof.
    Last edited by Skiploder; 05-05-2015 at 09:04 AM.

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  5. #4
    bcr229's Avatar
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    Re: Prevalence of IBD?

    Quote Originally Posted by Running Elk View Post
    I contacted Dr. Jacobson, who has studied IBD at the University of Florida. He basically said I should be concerned, and have two tests done. The blood test seems inaccurate -- he said more often then not "he sees false negatives more than false positives". That's an unnerving prospect.
    This is correct, which is why they recommend two blood tests at least 90 days apart - the likelihood of two false negative results in a critter with IBD is fairly low.

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  7. #5
    Registered User Running Elk's Avatar
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    Re: Prevalence of IBD?

    I was was a bit vague; I'm absolutely referring to the prevalence of asymptimatic carriers, which is my major concern with keeping boas.

    Thanks for this wonderful reply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skiploder View Post
    As far as prevalence goes, there are two things to keep in mind:

    (1) the prevalence as a function of boas being asymptomatic carriers.
    (2) the prevalence as a function of boas actually becoming symptomatic.

    Last time I checked on the literature, almost a third of all boas are thought to be asymptomatic carriers - which mean they harbor the virus but do not yet suffer from the effects. Some claim that number to be even higher. Many of those snakes will remain carriers and never develop the disease.

    ...and there is no literature as to how many asymptomatic carriers eventually develop into symptomatic victims.

    There is also no proof that it strikes pythons quicker than boas or that pythons cannot also remain asymptomatic for an undefined period of time. Many of the early stories of IBD ravaging ball python collections (some of the most famous ones) were later found to be other diseases.

    As for testing...the blood test is the least intrusive method. Other methods on living animals involve biopsies and are limited by the simple fact that if the inclusion bodies are not in the biopsied organ, it cannot be detected.

    Many years ago I had two tarahumara boas that were diagnosed with IBD...one was symptomatic, one was not. The symptoms were mild - lack of appetite and anorexia. I had to pay for several biopsies to diagnose the first snake. I had both euthanized. None of my pythons ever came down with the disease or tested positive for it.

    As with many reptile maladies, the extent of the problem is undefined - mainly because this hobby seems rife with people who don't feel the need to take their animals to a proper vet (if they go at all) or have necropsies done on animals that pass away.

    This has also led to the plethora of misinformation on IBD. Someone loses a large collection of ball pythons over a short period of time to a virulent disease. They take it to a vet that is less than informed on reptiles and the first thing that gets tossed out there is IBD. Since the symptoms of IBD cover the spectrum of just about every viral or bacterial malady that affects snakes, IBD is labeled as the culprit without any proof.

  8. #6
    Registered User Running Elk's Avatar
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    I'm sort of waiting until I graduate in a week to deal with this. This was a terrible time to rescue a boa.

    I did contact my vet though, they don't do IBD tests or work with labs that do, however if I bring her in they'll take blood and package it for shipping properly, and I can send it wherever it needs to go.

    I guess I'll figure that all out next week. I basically have an idea, I just need to make some phone calls and tie up the details, payment, etc.

    What a mess.

    Thank you everyone for your replies. Feel free to post anything else if it comes to you -- I want to learn as much about this as I can. There is a wild amount of misinformation/conflicting information on the subject flying around the web; I'm grateful that I have gotten some very helpful and solid replies on here.
    Last edited by Running Elk; 05-05-2015 at 05:14 PM.

  9. #7
    Registered User Running Elk's Avatar
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    Re: Prevalence of IBD?

    I have have had several people suggest putting a BP with her to see if it dies. That seems to be a common practice. Do people who raise both boas and pythons regularly use this method? I'm not sure that any of the people who have suggested it to me have actually ever done it themselves...I didn't ask.

    I don't know how I feel about this; I certainly have some ethical concerns -- technicalities on whether it's a reliable method or not aside. On the one hand, there are many things I'd sacrifice for my BP collection's safety and health. I'd most assuredly choose my BPs lives over the life of one random BP if I had to choose, right or wrong. But at that point (having to sacrifice for their safety) I'd probably just rehome the boa instead, because she could be happy elsewhere and I wouldn't have to theoretically kill a snake. I don't need to have a boa, I want to have a boa. I'd feel bad sentencing a BP to death for a want.

    I guess it's probably much different if you raise and breed both species and have a notable collection of both - I have a ton invested in my BP collection and just one new boa...I just don't think that method is the right option for me or my situation.

    I really like her (the boa), I'm willing to pay for the tests and see how it goes.



    Quote Originally Posted by Sauzo View Post
    I say do the normal quarantine and go from there. I keep both my boas with my BP and all is fine. I wouldn't say IBD is that common or at least I haven't heard a lot of people having problems with it. The thing when someone does have a problem with it, you definitely hear about it on the forums but its the minority imo. Now boas can be carriers for it as in they have it but don't ever show signs. The only way to find out is put a BP with them and see what happens to the BP as its fatal in pythons. Also I think a lot of people who claim their snake has IBD might have something else like an overheated snake which cause neurological disorders too and people instantly jump to IBD. As far as I know, there is no sure fire way to check for IBD in a living boa. I think the only way is either take a liver sample which again I'm not sure on, I think I read it somewhere or a 100% way to check is like I said, put the boa in contact with a ball python for a bit under your supervision and then see if the BP dies in a few days as IBD is quick and fatal in pythons. Cruel but the only 100% way I know of. But also like I said, I don't think IBD is really as common as some people make it out to be. look at all the breeders that breed boas and pythons, you don't really hear about many IBD breakouts wiping out collections, think I read about 2-3 in the past 10-20 years. But at the end of the day, it's your collection and your choice.
    Last edited by Running Elk; 05-05-2015 at 05:50 PM.

  10. #8
    bcr229's Avatar
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    Re: Prevalence of IBD?

    Quote Originally Posted by Running Elk View Post
    I have have had several people suggest putting a BP with her to see if it dies. That seems to be a common practice. Do people who raise both boas and pythons regularly use this method? I'm not sure that any of the people who have suggested it to me have actually ever done it themselves...I didn't ask.
    Before the blood test became available recently people used to pick up a normal male BP and house it in the same room/rack with their quarantined boa to act as a "canary in the coal mine". If the BP got sick then they knew the boa was a carrier. Crude, but cheap and effective. Not something I would do though, I'd just pay for the blood test if I were concerned.
    Last edited by bcr229; 05-05-2015 at 05:55 PM.

  11. #9
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    Re: Prevalence of IBD?

    Ok so if ibd was so bad dint you think they would be allowed at the expos?

  12. #10
    BPnet Lifer Skiploder's Avatar
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    Re: Prevalence of IBD?

    Quote Originally Posted by bcr229 View Post
    Before the blood test became available recently people used to pick up a normal male BP and house it in the same room/rack with their quarantined boa to act as a "canary in the coal mine". If the BP got sick then they knew the boa was a carrier. Crude, but cheap and effective. Not something I would do though, I'd just pay for the blood test if I were concerned.
    ...except that ball pythons don't die first, or faster or are any less able to remain asymptomatic carriers.

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