More snakes to join Burmese python on restricted list

[salt]

The everglades issue is a Florida issue. It shouldn't be a federal issue as these snakes cant live outside that state. Also a lot of the science they've used to determine whether or not these creatures can live farther north is flawed.

[xyzpdq75]

As an ecologist, I promise you that banning someone in Michigan from taking their retic to Wisconsin has no measurable effect on any ecosystem anywhere. For that matter, banning someone in Louisiana from taking their retic to Mississippi doesn't have any effect on any ecosystem anywhere. These snakes can ONLY survive winters in South Florida, meaning that this is solely a South Florida problem. And by 'creeping further north' how far 'north' are you talking? Mid-florida? The fact is these animals cannot survive further north than that.

It's not a matter of 'not listening to scientists' (as a scientist I'm usually hypersensitive to that sort of mentality) unless you're talking about the herpetological experts who are trying to explain that this is not a problem for forty-nine and a half states. No one is disputing the fact that invasive species are at least somewhat harmful to everglades ecology, and you don't see this sort of reaction to the laws demanding that people get permits or microchip their animals in South Florida or the hefty fines if your pet escapes there.
If you want to complain about people not listening to the experts, you picked the wrong side of this discussion.

If you're not vegan you really don't have the right to make such holier-than-thou statements. I mean, I realize that you probably consume responsibly, but if there's even the remote possibility that your meat came from somewhere in Hawaii where feral hogs are a major issue you should be willing to sacrifice for the greater good (same goes for cattle and egg/poultry farming... these operations are doing irreparable harm to irreplaceable ecosystems globally).
That last bit was sarcasm btw. I realize that this is ridiculous. Of course it is logical; these things do much more harm to the environment than people's pet snakes ever will, but no one in their right mind would try and change it because meat consumption isn't a niche market.

this was great, thankyou

[John1982]

Maybe instead of wasting your energy trying to have things they way they were before this Everglades issue, you could spend time proposing a sort of license alternative?

You do realize the everglades issue isn't new? You should call up FWC and have a chat with someone about conditional species. There is already a licensing requirement implemented for the state. It's not particularly time consuming or difficult to achieve but it comes with a yearly fee and a requirement to microchip animals so if they're ever found in the wild you will face the consequences. You have to outline a preparedness plan that explains how animals will be secured and stored in the event of a disaster. The plan must include an outline of your facility indicating the locations of animals, equipment, exits routes, etc. You must also include emergency contacts for people qualified to assist in the handling of the animals as well as up to date veterinarian information. The licensing alone took care of any impulse buys from unqualified owners. If you're still not convinced ask FWC to send you the applications and have a look for yourself.

The "Holier-than-thou" attitude on this forum is on a level I have never seen in a reptile keeping website, yet no one wants to see the greater picture on this issue that is ACTUALLY important, they just choose to be selfish and waste time fighting over things that aren't actually beneficial to anybody such as wording when someone is making a simple point and such. It is a good thing people here can hide behind their keyboards on this forum, because in front of a scientific board they'd probably be laughed at.

Maybe because our rights are being taken away based on outdated literature, biased "scientific" studies, and utter myths. Please explain to me the greater picture and how adding these snakes to the Lacey Act is going to do anything positive for the state of Florida and it's environment. Have you even read any of the "science" that the "scientific board" has presented that's being used to push these amendments through? It's so absurd I can't decide if I want to laugh or cry when I read some of that crap. It's obvious why they don't want it reviewed by a panel of their peers.

[Stewart_Reptiles]

I know this is definitely going to be the least popular opinion here, but honestly, it sounds to me too many people on this site are only thinking of their own wants when it comes to these proposed species bans. These wildlife biologists and environmental managers in the Everglades are trying to save literally MILLIONS of years of nature's work by trying to eradicate several well-established species in a habitat that was not made for them. People only seem to care about their morphs and pets over what trained professionals and scientists are implementing to at least try to decrease the inward gene flow of invasive animals in the everglades. Not trying to crap on anyone's knowledge here, but what makes you think you know better than people who have gone through years of school for this sort of thing? Just because you own some snakes and like having them around, you get upset that there is a bigger picture outside of what you see as fun? Sure, there are some biologists who would side with you in saying that these restrictions are going to be relatively ineffective here, but obviously the vast majority of them believe otherwise if these sort of restrictions are surfacing in legislation and there is an absence of major backlash from the scientific community. You're scolding politicians for listening to trained scientists over people who own snakes as a hobby, do you really blame them?

I frankly am not concerned about who these bans are effecting economically either. If you chose to make breeding and selling these snakes your lively hood, I'm sorry. But this Everglades ordeal is bigger than you or the number of people like you. If placing this ban even only SLIGHTLY benefits the larger picture in the Everglades, it was a good move. I know most people here are responsible pet owners but it only takes a small number to cause significant damage from what the studies have shown. I know you like your pet snakes, but they're pet snakes, and that is exponentially less important than even experimenting with legislation to see if it benefits the Everglades in anyway possible. If you disagree with that, don't even say that you appreciate even YOUR animals, because the Everglades is a haven for biodiversity, and many species like the ones you're desperately trying to cling on to are going to be gone forever very soon. And as for areas outside of the Everglades, it may be true that these large constrictors couldn't be capable of establishing themselves in colder climates, but we have seen them starting to creep farther and farther up North in recent years and no one is thinking of what sort of diseases these things are capable of carrying and releasing on native reptile populations when they come from wild-caught sources.

Many of the arguments I have been seeing on this site in the year I have been here and time I've spent browsing without an account, I have seen very little not based on emotion. Maybe instead of wasting your energy trying to have things they way they were before this Everglades issue, you could spend time proposing a sort of license alternative? The "Holier-than-thou" attitude on this forum is on a level I have never seen in a reptile keeping website, yet no one wants to see the greater picture on this issue that is ACTUALLY important, they just choose to be selfish and waste time fighting over things that aren't actually beneficial to anybody such as wording when someone is making a simple point and such. It is a good thing people here can hide behind their keyboards on this forum, because in front of a scientific board they'd probably be laughed at.

Wow not sure where to start also I know that it's gonna be a waste of keystroke so I will keep it short I wasted enough time reading your post.

Brandon I remember when I was 19 like you and thought I knew everything, of course you are a biology student and want to save the planet (which is commendable) but while you are seeing A picture you are failing to see the REAL big picture.

People here are well aware that there is an issue in Florida no one has never denied this and solutions have been proposed in the past. The constrictor rule is based on junk science, paper written by so called scientist that are PAID by animals right activist (yes there is a much bigger picture here).Did you know that in one of those papers their modeling was showing that the burmese population could migrate as far north as washington DC , YOU call that science?

Now do you seriously think that banning interstate transportation (not allowing owners to take their pets when they move and becoming felons) will solve the issue in FL? If you do please enlighten us? How does banning interstate transportation solve the everglades issue?

BTW I do not own large constrictors nor do I make a living breeding snakes but I have a good grasp on the issue and what it can mean for the future of reptile keepers (including those keeping BTS, Leos like yourself) and exotic animal owners as a whole.

Oh and for the attitude of people on the forum, if you don't like it.....just don't let the door hit you in the butt on your way out.

[8_Ball]

I know this is definitely going to be the least popular opinion here, but honestly, it sounds to me too many people on this site are only thinking of their own wants when it comes to these proposed species bans. These wildlife biologists and environmental managers in the Everglades are trying to save literally MILLIONS of years of nature's work by trying to eradicate several well-established species in a habitat that was not made for them. People only seem to care about their morphs and pets over what trained professionals and scientists are implementing to at least try to decrease the inward gene flow of invasive animals in the everglades. Not trying to crap on anyone's knowledge here, but what makes you think you know better than people who have gone through years of school for this sort of thing? Just because you own some snakes and like having them around, you get upset that there is a bigger picture outside of what you see as fun? Sure, there are some biologists who would side with you in saying that these restrictions are going to be relatively ineffective here, but obviously the vast majority of them believe otherwise if these sort of restrictions are surfacing in legislation and there is an absence of major backlash from the scientific community. You're scolding politicians for listening to trained scientists over people who own snakes as a hobby, do you really blame them?

I frankly am not concerned about who these bans are effecting economically either. If you chose to make breeding and selling these snakes your lively hood, I'm sorry. But this Everglades ordeal is bigger than you or the number of people like you. If placing this ban even only SLIGHTLY benefits the larger picture in the Everglades, it was a good move. I know most people here are responsible pet owners but it only takes a small number to cause significant damage from what the studies have shown. I know you like your pet snakes, but they're pet snakes, and that is exponentially less important than even experimenting with legislation to see if it benefits the Everglades in anyway possible. If you disagree with that, don't even say that you appreciate even YOUR animals, because the Everglades is a haven for biodiversity, and many species like the ones you're desperately trying to cling on to are going to be gone forever very soon. And as for areas outside of the Everglades, it may be true that these large constrictors couldn't be capable of establishing themselves in colder climates, but we have seen them starting to creep farther and farther up North in recent years and no one is thinking of what sort of diseases these things are capable of carrying and releasing on native reptile populations when they come from wild-caught sources.

Many of the arguments I have been seeing on this site in the year I have been here and time I've spent browsing without an account, I have seen very little not based on emotion. Maybe instead of wasting your energy trying to have things they way they were before this Everglades issue, you could spend time proposing a sort of license alternative? The "Holier-than-thou" attitude on this forum is on a level I have never seen in a reptile keeping website, yet no one wants to see the greater picture on this issue that is ACTUALLY important, they just choose to be selfish and waste time fighting over things that aren't actually beneficial to anybody such as wording when someone is making a simple point and such. It is a good thing people here can hide behind their keyboards on this forum, because in front of a scientific board they'd probably be laughed at.

We're selfish??? Your worried about a snake that can only thrive in less than half of one state that's going to "ruin millions of years of nature's work". Have you seen what humans have done to this planet and continue to do? I'm an Environmental Economics major and let me tell you that banning snakes should be the least of the governments concern right now. There's one invasive species of animal that is going to over populate the earth and destroy everything nature has ever made in the next couple of hundred years: humans. The government should fix what the human race is doing to this earth before worrying about a silly snake because let me tell you we are doing far worse damage then a burm or retic can.

[frostysBP]

Ok lets hurry and try to save the everglades now that we have destroyed most of it with our concrete jungles....... we as humans are the most invasive thing to this planet... go for a walk in the middle of any forest and look at all the trash you will find. There's a lot more going on in the everglades than the burm population.

[nightrainfalls]

I know this is definitely going to be the least popular opinion here, but honestly, it sounds to me too many people on this site are only thinking of their own wants when it comes to these proposed species bans. These wildlife biologists and environmental managers in the Everglades are trying to save literally MILLIONS of years of nature's work by trying to eradicate several well-established species in a habitat that was not made for them. People only seem to care about their morphs and pets over what trained professionals and scientists are implementing to at least try to decrease the inward gene flow of invasive animals in the everglades. Not trying to crap on anyone's knowledge here, but what makes you think you know better than people who have gone through years of school for this sort of thing? Just because you own some snakes and like having them around, you get upset that there is a bigger picture outside of what you see as fun? Sure, there are some biologists who would side with you in saying that these restrictions are going to be relatively ineffective here, but obviously the vast majority of them believe otherwise if these sort of restrictions are surfacing in legislation and there is an absence of major backlash from the scientific community. You're scolding politicians for listening to trained scientists over people who own snakes as a hobby, do you really blame them?

I frankly am not concerned about who these bans are effecting economically either. If you chose to make breeding and selling these snakes your lively hood, I'm sorry. But this Everglades ordeal is bigger than you or the number of people like you. If placing this ban even only SLIGHTLY benefits the larger picture in the Everglades, it was a good move. I know most people here are responsible pet owners but it only takes a small number to cause significant damage from what the studies have shown. I know you like your pet snakes, but they're pet snakes, and that is exponentially less important than even experimenting with legislation to see if it benefits the Everglades in anyway possible. If you disagree with that, don't even say that you appreciate even YOUR animals, because the Everglades is a haven for biodiversity, and many species like the ones you're desperately trying to cling on to are going to be gone forever very soon. And as for areas outside of the Everglades, it may be true that these large constrictors couldn't be capable of establishing themselves in colder climates, but we have seen them starting to creep farther and farther up North in recent years and no one is thinking of what sort of diseases these things are capable of carrying and releasing on native reptile populations when they come from wild-caught sources.

Many of the arguments I have been seeing on this site in the year I have been here and time I've spent browsing without an account, I have seen very little not based on emotion. Maybe instead of wasting your energy trying to have things they way they were before this Everglades issue, you could spend time proposing a sort of license alternative? The "Holier-than-thou" attitude on this forum is on a level I have never seen in a reptile keeping website, yet no one wants to see the greater picture on this issue that is ACTUALLY important, they just choose to be selfish and waste time fighting over things that aren't actually beneficial to anybody such as wording when someone is making a simple point and such. It is a good thing people here can hide behind their keyboards on this forum, because in front of a scientific board they'd probably be laughed at.

Dear BJK

Thank you for your thoughtful post. I, and most of the members of this site would like to see the Everglades National Preserve protected. We truly value the unique ecosystems that exist there. Unfortunately those ecosystems are under considerable threat, from a dangerous invasive species. That species is not however the Burmese python, or for that matter any of the pythons or Anacondas on the Lacey Act list. Human beings are the single largest threat to the preserve. if you research the history of the Everglades, you will quickly become convinced that the government is not to be trusted with the health or safety of the everglades. In fact the federal government actually gave the glades to Florida with the requirement that they be destroyed. Furthermore through the 1930's the federal government systematically assisted Florida in draining most of the glades and converting the vast swamp to farmland. People built cities on glades land and thousands of exotic species were introduced. here is a summary https://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/south...s/threats.html Here is another summary http://www.nrdc.org/water/conservation/qever.asp

You will note that no matter where you look, when you talk to people who know what is going on, and when you talk with wild life managers in the field, urbanization and agriculture, and the water management that comes with those things is what is really destroying the glades. Most articles talking about the threats to the glades scarcely even discuss pythons, other than a casual mention. The fact that pollution is pouring into the glades, and life giving water is being choked off and redirected is a larger threat. The government is not trying to protect the glades with the ban on Pythons. The government is actually responsible for destroying the glades. The python ban is a response to certain special interest groups interested in destroying the pet trade.

Now right now, I am sure you are shaking your head at what I just wrote. Do some open minded research and look at the threats to the glades. You will quickly learn to believe me, because I am telling the truth.

Now please do me a favor. Go to this study https://usark.org/wp-content/uploads...mpfulltext.pdf Read the study carefully, it is written by scientists who have years of education and have studied the problem. These are people you can trust. Now tell me how this study indicates that these snakes are moving incrementally north like you suggested here "but we have seen them starting to creep farther and farther up North in recent years." Read the conclusion of the study were the scientists state "our empirical observation on the effects of the cold weather event... cast doubt that Burmese pythons can become established and persist beyond the southern portion of the Florida peninsula." This important study lays waste to the idea that Burmese pythons will ever move north. "What makes you think you know better than people who have gone through years of school for this sort of thing?" (Sorry to hang you on your own words.)

Now go to this study http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.o.../1805/20150120 and read the scientist's conclusions. Then go to the data, make sure to look in the supplement as well, some of the data is deliberately put in there so the scientists can skew their data. Now calculate the survival rate of Rabbits in the python infested areas and the survival rate in non python infested areas. You will be surprised to learn that rabbits are twice as likely to live in python infested areas than in non python infested areas. Do the math yourself. If you need help, you can go to this thread and see exactly how the government scientists, who are in the minority, are lying to you. http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...erglades-study Once you have seen this with your own eyes, you will be shocked. You will put your head in your hands, and be shaken up. You won't want to believe it. here is the truth you won't want to believe. These scientists work for the government. The government wants the wealthy sugar cane industry in Florida. The government pays the scientist to get certain results, and the scientists do whatever is needed, no matter how dishonest, to get the results.

David

[Bluebonnet Herp]

Lawsuit update!
http://usark.org/2015-blog/lawsuit-u...wsletter-4115/

Lawsuit Update

USARK has been diligently working on several aspects of our lawsuit regarding the injurious listing of eight species of constrictor snakes under the Lacey Act. As posted earlier, USARK sent a letter to FWS on March 16 requesting an extension of the effective date for the latest listing, which includes Reticulated pythons and Green anacondas. The Reptile Nation was only given 30 days from the federal register publishing of the finalized rule on March 10 before FWS enforces import and interstate transportation bans of the newly-listed species.

We received a response from FWS denying this extension request yesterday (3/31/15). This was expected and USARK has not simply been waiting around hoping FWS would grant an extension. In their response, FWS showed complete disregard for the majority of our letter.

Since we were expecting rejection from FWS, our preliminary injunction (PI) simply needed a quick edit to include mention of this denial letter. The PI was filed today (4/1/15) along with a motion for a temporary restraining order (TRO) and proposed order to be signed by Judge Moss granting the TRO and motion for relief (or PI). The TRO will expedite the process. Judge Moss has already scheduled a conference with the attorneys to set a schedule for briefing the motion.

It would be an understatement to say the USARK complaint and motion for relief are strong. The Reptile Nation could not have a better case or team working on this lawsuit.

Since filing our complaint in late 2013, USARK has continued to build this case. This followed a document sent to FWS Director Dan Ashe and presented personally by USARK President Phil Goss and the USARK D.C. team to senior staff from the Department of the Interior (DOI) and FWS earlier in 2013. Among many other aspects, this document highlighted faults with the agency's compliance with regulatory procedures and an overall lack of reasoned analysis.

Members of the Reptile Nation received validation of USARK's intention and competence to proceed with a lawsuit, if needed, in a newsletter following this 2013 meeting with the DOI and FWS:

"We oppose the listing of any of the remaining species and are committed to fighting any such restrictions with all of the resources at our disposal. Our legal case is strong and we fully intend to fight for the rights of our members to protect their freedom to engage in their passion." - USARK President Phil Goss (2013)

The strength of our case far surpasses impressive. USARK has worked tirelessly to build this formidable suit. The Reptile Nation can stand proudly and USARK appreciates your continued support.

Links to documents:

FWS Denial Letter: http://www.usark.org/wp-content/uplo...al-3.31.15.pdf

USARK Preliminary Injunction: http://www.usark.org/wp-content/uplo..._PI-4.1.15.pdf

USARK TRO: http://www.usark.org/wp-content/uplo...iew-4.1.15.pdf

USARK Proposed Order: http://www.usark.org/wp-content/uplo...der-4.1.15.pdf