New pickup - problem

[Skiploder]

At first I didn't want to start any arguments because he has a good reputation from what I've read previously (which is why I purchased from him). I did not want to call him a bad guy right off the bat because I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt. After reading the feedback on the situation, it seemed that a lot of people here really wanted me to post about him so they can avoid having animals shipped by him with no label. So I went ahead and posted about it in the BOI. I'm a little surprised on the outcome. Few people are saying it's not a big deal.. A lot of people kept bringing up the nose rub situation, and they were making incorrect assumptions and asking questions.. When I was correcting the assumptions and answering the questions, it's still unclear to me where everyone's stance is on that problem..

I'm mad that she came with a nose rub, but I'm also mad that there was no label! As skiploder mentioned, if she didn't come with a nose rub, I probably wouldn't have been as mad about the label.. I would have been happy she made it here perfectly fine despite the risky journey.. I would have been bothered, but honestly, I probably wouldn't have posted about it in the BOI, or had been as pissed off... I'm happy with my decision to post it there though. At least people can decide for themselves. He's aware of the thread (I sent him a link), and he can comment on it whenever he wants.

Here's the deal:

The nose rub is an issue - not because it happened during shipping, but because from the other photos it looks like a pre-existing condition that should have been disclosed.

The shipping issue is an issue and it is NOT an issue. All boxes should be labeled and delivered in accordance with both carrier and federal requirements.

The problem is that the majority of the people use a white box, mark it Live Animals and think they are on some sort of moral high ground compared to someone who packs the snake in a brown box without the live animal mark.

That does not wash.

If someone is going to attempt to call someone out on improper shipping practices, you better darn well know ALL of the rules you should be adhering to.

That means that simply slapping a "Live Animal" sticker on a white box and getting a signature should not be the end all. It does not conform to the Lacey Act and it does not conform to Fedex's own rules by which they hold your live animal shipper certificate.

[h00blah]

Here's the deal:

The nose rub is an issue - not because it happened during shipping, but because from the other photos it looks like a pre-existing condition that should have been disclosed.

The shipping issue is an issue and it is NOT an issue. All boxes should be labeled and delivered in accordance with both carrier and federal requirements.

The problem is that the majority of the people use a white box, mark it Live Animals and think they are on some sort of moral high ground compared to someone who packs the snake in a brown box without the live animal mark.

That does not wash.

If someone is going to attempt to call someone out on improper shipping practices, you better darn well know ALL of the rules you should be adhering to.

That means that simply slapping a "Live Animal" sticker on a white box and getting a signature should not be the end all. It does not conform to the Lacey Act and it does not conform to Fedex's own rules by which they hold your live animal shipper certificate.

In the BOI, "Susan S." posted this:

means you have agreed (and actually I had to sign for and provide a notarized statement) to ship according to Fedex rules. I shipped live snakes for many years through Fedex before getting certified. Once I learned about the certification process and then sent my box to Memphis for the "box test" and then passing the test, I took seriously my commitment to not only sell quality captive-bred ball python morphs, but to provide excellent customer service........which in my opinion, includes quality shipping. Fedex says I must label the box with "live harmless reptiles" and so does my Florida Fish & Wildlife Commission! I also require a signature. I tell my recipients that they MUST be home to receive the shipment and I require the signature for this purpose. I don't want the animal that I have nurtured and grown to fry on someone's doorstep. NO WAY is the seller of the clown a certified Fedex shipper!

I would not be happy receiving the snake with the nose rub that you received either. I think you handled it well, especially taking it immediately to the vet. You made the seller aware, he refused to pay any of the vet bill. In my opinion this forum is exactly the place you should be telling others of your experience with this seller. I personally will never buy from him!

Her post really reflects how I feel on the whole situation. I feel as if it's a matter of customer service. The nose rub not being disclosed to me is bad customer service. Ensuring quality (not using the word "proper" this time) shipping seems like it's a service rather than an obligation or requirement. Not paying a cent towards my vet visit for this snake with BLOOD ON THE HEAT PITS/NOSE is a service that I PERSONALLY would have followed through on, but is not necessary... Though I would have done many things differently than Richard, it does not mean that he doesn't produce quality animals, or that he doesn't take proper care of his snakes. He allowed me to keep her for a few days to let her settle in, and see how she progresses. He even suggested that I try feeding her to see how she is. I GREATLY appreciated that, and I let him know it!

I still got a box handed to me as if there was no animal in it, I still had to open the box to an unfortunate discovery, and I still had to pay the vet bill. In Susan's words, I also will never buy from him again. I guess I just have higher expectations when it comes to this sort of thing. I've been spoiled by GREAT service from other previous out-of-state breeders. Again, the choice is upto all of you.

[Slim]

That means that simply slapping a "Live Animal" sticker on a white box and getting a signature should not be the end all. It does not conform to the Lacey Act and it does not conform to Fedex's own rules by which they hold your live animal shipper certificate.

You've seen the box and manner in which the snake was shipped. Please tell me what rules this shipper did conform to?

Improper is improper. There are no excuses.

[h00blah]

Skiploder:
I really appreciate your point of view on the whole situation.

Slim:
I appreciate you and the other posters here who feel strongly about the importance of quality customer service, as well as some other comments you've made.

I appreciate all the feedback, suggestions, and support I received from all you guys. I also appreciate the people playing devil's advocate, and offering DIFFERENT points of view. However, I feel that this is not the place in the ball python forum to continue to post your points of view . I believe this belongs in the "Feedback/Inquiries" section, but I'd rather not create another channel for discussion since there's a pretty deep discussion going on at the BOI here:
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/foru...=312779&page=7

I would rather direct people to give their opinions in that thread than this one . That'd be awesome .

[Royal Hijinx]

I think my biggest issue here (and with most any transaction) does not really lie in the mistakes made, but in the fact they were not owned up to. If he had apologized for improper labeling and nose rubbing and maybe even offered something beyond "Put her back in the box" it would show a lot more. It is the "I am right, and you get what you get" attitude that does not stand. I can forgive mistakes, but I generally will not forgive poor customer service.

[Skiploder]

You've seen the box and manner in which the snake was shipped. Please tell me what rules this shipper did conform to?

Improper is improper. There are no excuses.

None.

For the most part, neither does anyone else. Doesn't make it right, but let's call a round tip shovel a round tip shovel. Most people bloviating about no sticker and no white box don't know jack about proper labeling or fedex rules.

Thomas, if they did, noone would be bringing up the fact that they ship or receive at residential addresses without wincing from all the broken windows on their glass houses.

[Robyn@SYR]

Selective outrage can indeed be amusing, touche Skip : )

Using ShipYourReptiles, you are specifically allowed to ship to and from Residential addresses. With the normal FedEx Reptile Certification, you are allowed to ONLY ship Business to Business. And even more strictly, only ZONED Business addresses. Biz out of the house doesn't count. It is very specific.

Looking at the limited shipping pictures, and given Hooblah's, details, I don't see proper package labeling, which is a significant issue in these legislative and Snake Ban times. What an individual does reflects on ALL of us.

(Lacey Act specifies at minimum, that the box is labeled "wildlife". It doesn't mention anything about the popular phrasing "Live Harmless Reptiles" as meeting the requirement. Upon lengthy discussion with F&W folks, at SYR we recommend "Wildlife- Live Harmless Reptiles" to meet the minimum requirement AS WELL AS the easily understandable phrasing.)

What I do see is some poorly cut/fitted insulation. That defeats the point of the insulation, when you have ragged pieces and no tight seams to prevent temperature fluctuation.

Poor form on shipping box selection, from what I see. (and given our limited vision through these pics)

As for "handle with care" labeling and FedEx driver handling, you should pack your reptile safely and responsibly for the safety of the animal itself. Nothing you write on the box is going to get you special handling, treatment, or delivery on down filled pillows. The box will tumble and drop down conveyer belts and be stored upside down on shelves and in trucks no matter what you write on the box. That is the reality. Proper packaging makes all that a moot point.

You should rely on excellent packaging to protect your animal, not the hands of a delivery driver dropping off one of 2000 packages today.

Switching persona from professional shipper to professional breeder...

As for the condition of the snake, I would have returned it. All things considered, returned it. I don't want to see a bloody, rubbed nose. I think that is indicative of other stress and health issues. I see nose issues in the "before" ad pics. I would have assumed that was a going in/out of shed issue, but once I saw it worse in person, I'm out.

The seller offered a return. I would have taken advantage of that. Do I eat shipping both ways? Yes, if I needed to, returning it is my choice (as the buyer).

Once you started hedging your bets, and posting on various forums, you have apparently shut Richard down from further communication. Looks like he is not up to deal with you. Only makes it worse for both sides, but it is what it is.

As for the vet visit, that is on you. As a breeder, I am not interested in your vet, nor do I want to pay the cost.

I only use a vet for the MOST serious of issues. Nose rub, stuck shed, other minor issues are not one of those. But others like to go to the vet for everything. That is their choice. But I don't expect to be stuck with a $300 vet bill from your local Dog and Cat Vet because you are scared about an issue. Send it back to me, I can deal with it no problem. That is how I would approach it.

Of course, I would never send out a snake with a nose issue either. But still, you making the choice to incur $50, or $500, at a vet, that is on you. Send it back (as Richard initially offered) and it is $0 for the vet.

Apparently you are keeping the animal. I would set it up in a covered enclosure, and eliminate as much visual disturbance and stress as possible. I wouldn't want it to continue that nose rub. Great temps, hydration, a number of tight hide spots for security, and wait a week or two to feed.

Assuming there is no underlying stress/health issue that leads to chronic nose rub, the animal should recover fine, and be on the right track.

Don't let the drama of the situation, and posting, get you too wound up about it. It seems you have made your choice to keep it, so focus on getting her to 100%, and move forward. Lessons learned.

Best of luck!

[h00blah]

Selective outrage can indeed be amusing, touche Skip : )

Using ShipYourReptiles, you are specifically allowed to ship to and from Residential addresses. With the normal FedEx Reptile Certification, you are allowed to ONLY ship Business to Business. And even more strictly, only ZONED Business addresses. Biz out of the house doesn't count. It is very specific.

Looking at the limited shipping pictures, and given Hooblah's, details, I don't see proper package labeling, which is a significant issue in these legislative and Snake Ban times. What an individual does reflects on ALL of us.

(Lacey Act specifies at minimum, that the box is labeled "wildlife". It doesn't mention anything about the popular phrasing "Live Harmless Reptiles" as meeting the requirement. Upon lengthy discussion with F&W folks, at SYR we recommend "Wildlife- Live Harmless Reptiles" to meet the minimum requirement AS WELL AS the easily understandable phrasing.)

What I do see is some poorly cut/fitted insulation. That defeats the point of the insulation, when you have ragged pieces and no tight seams to prevent temperature fluctuation.

Poor form on shipping box selection, from what I see. (and given our limited vision through these pics)

As for "handle with care" labeling and FedEx driver handling, you should pack your reptile safely and responsibly for the safety of the animal itself. Nothing you write on the box is going to get you special handling, treatment, or delivery on down filled pillows. The box will tumble and drop down conveyer belts and be stored upside down on shelves and in trucks no matter what you write on the box. That is the reality. Proper packaging makes all that a moot point.

You should rely on excellent packaging to protect your animal, not the hands of a delivery driver dropping off one of 2000 packages today.

Switching persona from professional shipper to professional breeder...

As for the condition of the snake, I would have returned it. All things considered, returned it. I don't want to see a bloody, rubbed nose. I think that is indicative of other stress and health issues. I see nose issues in the "before" ad pics. I would have assumed that was a going in/out of shed issue, but once I saw it worse in person, I'm out.

The seller offered a return. I would have taken advantage of that. Do I eat shipping both ways? Yes, if I needed to, returning it is my choice (as the buyer).

Once you started hedging your bets, and posting on various forums, you have apparently shut Richard down from further communication. Looks like he is not up to deal with you. Only makes it worse for both sides, but it is what it is.

As for the vet visit, that is on you. As a breeder, I am not interested in your vet, nor do I want to pay the cost.

I only use a vet for the MOST serious of issues. Nose rub, stuck shed, other minor issues are not one of those. But others like to go to the vet for everything. That is their choice. But I don't expect to be stuck with a $300 vet bill from your local Dog and Cat Vet because you are scared about an issue. Send it back to me, I can deal with it no problem. That is how I would approach it.

Of course, I would never send out a snake with a nose issue either. But still, you making the choice to incur $50, or $500, at a vet, that is on you. Send it back (as Richard initially offered) and it is $0 for the vet.

Apparently you are keeping the animal. I would set it up in a covered enclosure, and eliminate as much visual disturbance and stress as possible. I wouldn't want it to continue that nose rub. Great temps, hydration, a number of tight hide spots for security, and wait a week or two to feed.

Assuming there is no underlying stress/health issue that leads to chronic nose rub, the animal should recover fine, and be on the right track.

Don't let the drama of the situation, and posting, get you too wound up about it. It seems you have made your choice to keep it, so focus on getting her to 100%, and move forward. Lessons learned.

Best of luck!

Thanks for the very informative post. I am already moving forward trying to give my new snake a comfortable living. Nice dark rack . So far I haven't seen her trying to escape. She just sits on the heat in a little coil.. I did catch her drinking yesterday when I went to check on her temps and humidity after work . She seems like such a calm snake... Still giving her time to settle in and relax - undisturbed.

[Robyn@SYR]

Sounds like you are on the right track.

[Slim]

Thomas, if they did, noone would be bringing up the fact that they ship or receive at residential addresses without wincing from all the broken windows on their glass houses.

This is a good point, and one I can not argue with.