Scaleless Ball Pythons?!

Brian has been breeding scaleless snakes (colubrids) for years. I've held a couple. They're very hardy snakes that feel wickedly cool to hold. They're not at all delicate like people seem to think they should be.

Now...whether or not this particular genetic mutation will present other health risks for ball pythons remains to be seen. But it's an exciting first step to find out if a scaleless ball python can be just as hardy as a scaleless corn snake. Won't know until it's tried, and that's what Brian has stumbled onto.

Brian is one of a handful of individuals I would trust to work on a project like this in the right way. The well being of the animal is paramount in his heart. I'm confident of his abilities to recognize and care for an animal that is destined not to thrive, should that turn out to be the case, and I'm confident he wouldn't continue to breed an a truly weak animal simply for the sake of potential profit.

It'll be exciting to watch and see what happens with these new babies!

BHB just posted a scaleless ball...looks sick.. wonder how it will do..

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Originally Posted by Rickys_Reptiles

I also remember the Derma having a multitude of health issues.

These Scaleless BPs that Brian has produced - well I guess we'll see. Hopefully their skin is think enough. This reminds me of Silk back Bearded Dragons. They look awesome, but their skin is so thin that it literally rips and tears leaving the animals in excruciating pain.

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Thats news to me, our silk seem to be just fine :) he does get rubbed down with lotion tho, otherwise his skin dries out.

Brian pulled the first scaleless head ball python out of a bunch of random snakes. Just a snake with a few missing scales. He bred it and found the scaleless head to be genetic. Finally breeding a scaleless head to a scaleless head, produced the scaleless ball, it is not related to any of the previous scaleless projects, so it might not have the issues, we can hope.

This is very exciting news. Hope they do well.

after a while of occasional watching from the sidelines, with these gigantic news i just had to log in :D

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Originally Posted by OhhWatALoser

Thats news to me, our silk seem to be just fine :) he does get rubbed down with lotion tho, otherwise his skin dries out.

Brian pulled the first scaleless head ball python out of a bunch of random snakes. Just a snake with a few missing scales. He bred it and found the scaleless head to be genetic. Finally breeding a scaleless head to a scaleless head, produced the scaleless ball, it is not related to any of the previous scaleless projects, so it might not have the issues, we can hope.

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Yes thats also what i gathered, the info is sprinkled into different snakebytesTV episodes. In the latest episode just recently he said that he has eggs in the incubator from a scaleless head to scaleless head breeding, and hopes to maybe hit a full scaleless.

so then the one that has like 5 scales missing on the head is the heterozygous form and its codom/incomplete dominant, and the super is a scaleless.

When Brian sold his first pair of 100% het sunglows (before that the morph only existed at BHB enterprises), asking price was 50000 dollars for both.

now for the first scaleless head / het scaleless, i think the initial price will be higher. Also the heterozygous ones can be sold individually because the missing head scales are so visible.


health issues.... hard to tell. i hope they turn out well. scaleless corns and scaleless texas rats seem to do fine. But the one-off deme ball was not healthy, but then, it was a random one-off.

i however see one issue: in the original deme ball, the heat pits are covered with a thin layer of skin, making them mostly useless. heat pits only work when they are deep and open, only then can the BP triangulate the direction and distance of the heat source. If the heat pits are essentially flattened by a layer of skin, the BP can at best tell that there is some heat source somewhere. When there are more pictures, when they are out of the egg, the heat pits will be the first thing i look at.

if the heat pits are really diminished, then i guess its really bad. a blind/eyeless BP can locate and hit its food, how about a snake with eyesight but no heat pits?

i cant wait to learn more, this is insane. All morphs we know are pixelated to a degree by the scale structure. Its like getting a new printer with higher DPI, or a new screen with higher resolution. So if these snakes turn out healthy then close to every morph will look better in scaleless.

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Originally Posted by decensored

Scaleless ball pythons are not new - although BHB is working with a new gene, the dermas have been around for a little while.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...er-if-you-dare!

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I believe the derma ball died a few years ago didn't it?

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Originally Posted by DestinyLynette

7. If you were to upgrade your collection, which morph would add that you do not already have in your collection? (Allan Riis)
OK, if I’m dreaming, then I will take a scaleless ball python. There was one several years ago called the Derma Ball and the guy that had it let it die. It is such a great responsibility when you have the only gene in existence and it is a shame that he didn’t send it to someone who would not let that happen. Scaleless Ball Python would be a complete game changer and whoever gets one first just hit the lottery. We know it is genetic. It is only a matter of time before one pops up. Then the bidding war will begin. I already have most of the other genes that I want. In fact, I really can’t think of a single one that I still want and don’t have. This will be a big year for us Banana/Coral Glow wise so I think a lot of people reading this will have an opportunity to add that mutation to their collection. A purple and orange co-dom ball python, it doesn’t get much better. Except for maybe the Atomic.

From an interview with Mike Willbanks

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How does Mike Wilbanks know that the original deme ball was genetic?

i assume he assumed it because such genes are proven recessives in other snake and reptile species. Its a multi-species trait, just like albino, or (in the furry animals) hairless.

if its genetic and the one you produce dies, you still have 2 parents that are each 100% het fot it. should be enough to not have the whole project go away with the death of one snake.

even if the deme ball was genetic and the producer totally botched it and did not even realize that he can resurrect the project with the two hets he has, or with even just one het and lots of patience, there still is the thing with the missing scales right in the middle of the top of the head. No mention of that in the context of the original deme ball.

The missing scales on the head were, i believe, first described by Brian of SnakebytesTV and CEO of BHB enterprises.... in, as he said, a hatchling he picked from a larger Africa import. Please prove me wrong and tell us if that trait, missing scales on top of the head, was ever described before Brian described it.

over all, i am quite confident that the scaleless gene is confined to Brians collection right now. Thats not bad news, im sure Brian (especially since it has that obvious marker) took care to breed it out and spread it around before crossing it back to hit the super. So the IPO of the gene (seems fitting with the money involved) will start when the gene turns out to be healthy, and with individual animals that are genetically diverse. I cannot think of a better person in charge of such an operation.

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Originally Posted by Pythonfriend

How does Mike Wilbanks know that the original deme ball was genetic?

i assume he assumed it because such genes are proven recessives in other snake and reptile species. Its a multi-species trait, just like albino, or (in the furry animals) hairless.

if its genetic and the one you produce dies, you still have 2 parents that are each 100% het fot it. should be enough to not have the whole project go away with the death of one snake.

even if the deme ball was genetic and the producer totally botched it and did not even realize that he can resurrect the project with the two hets he has, or with even just one het and lots of patience, there still is the thing with the missing scales right in the middle of the top of the head. No mention of that in the context of the original deme ball.

The missing scales on the head were, i believe, first described by Brian of SnakebytesTV and CEO of BHB enterprises.... in, as he said, a hatchling he picked from a larger Africa import. Please prove me wrong and tell us if that trait, missing scales on top of the head, was ever described before Brian described it.

over all, i am quite confident that the scaleless gene is confined to Brians collection right now. Thats not bad news, im sure Brian (especially since it has that obvious marker) took care to breed it out and spread it around before crossing it back to hit the super. So the IPO of the gene (seems fitting with the money involved) will start when the gene turns out to be healthy, and with individual animals that are genetically diverse. I cannot think of a better person in charge of such an operation.

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Oh yeah I completely agree that the derma ball and Brian’s are very different. I’m not even sure how the derma ball came to be, I just remember that it had died. If I remember right it was bred once but have no clue what happened with that.

I'm very exciting about these new babies!!!

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Originally Posted by decensored

Scaleless ball pythons are not new - although BHB is working with a new gene, the dermas have been around for a little while.

http://ball-pythons.net/forums/showt...er-if-you-dare!

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If you watch the most recent SnakeBytesTV Brian also states that the Derma ball was 80 to 90 percent scaleless the ones he cut today are 100 percent scaleless. I just wanted to throw that in, I haven't read a lot of things about the Derma ball but that's what Brian said in the most recent episode. I hope that helps clarify things a little better.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=58C6XU_h6c4

~CRR

they are still inside the egg and the veins are still red, not brown, so they must stay inside the egg a bit longer. so no judgement can be made on how scaleless they are.

and also on what i consider to be the most pressing issue, the condition of the heat pits, which i personally believe to be more important for a python regius than eyesight, the jury is still out.

Eyeless BPs manage to hit their food due to heat pits. We know nothing about BPs with eyes, but without heat pits.

lets wait and see for pics of the hatchlings out of the egg. And then lets wait for pics after the first shed. And look at the heat pits, closely.